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Breckenridge, Keystone, and all Summit County ColoradoReal Estate Summit County Real Estate Home Summit County MLS Summit County Real Estate Sales Summit County Real Estate Showcase New Construction Selling Buying 1031 Exchange Office Locations Breckenridge Resort Help Wanted Summit County Colorado Real Estate Quick Real Estate Search Area: Breckenridge Keystone Copper Mountain Dillon / Summit Cove Frisco Silverthorne / Wildernest Park County Leadville Other Type: Residential Price: 000 to 000 Min Beds Ignore 1 2 3 4 5 Min Baths: Ignore 1 2 3 4 5 Min Square Feet: Contact | Advanced Search | Home Summit County Colorado Real Estate This is the index page for the Summit County Colorado real estate site of Ted Amenta , RE/MAX Properties of the Summit - Breckenridge real estate agent. Contact Ted for information on any real estate in Summit County Colorado including Breckenridge, Keystone, Dillon, Frisco, Silverthorne, Wildernest, Blue River, and Copper Mountain . Personal Summit County Real Estate Search Account This FREE service will allow you to search real estate listing details for all of the property listings in the Summit County Multiple Listing System (MLS). You can save specific real estate search results and specific properties to come back and view at any time. You will be able to view complete property photos, map out property locations, track price changes, arrange for automatic email notification of new listings, email listing details to others, set up showings, and much more! ( This link will open in a new window ) Click here for other search options Featured Summit County Real Estate : This area has complete real estate listing information and property photos for Ted's personal Summit County real estate listings. Buying Summit County Real Estate : For those planning to invest in Summit County real estate. Selling Summit County Real Estate : For those who have Summit County real estate which they would like to sell. 1031 Exchange Information : For both buyers and sellers of Summit County real estate. Summit County Real Estate Sales : Summit County real estate sales data dating back to Jan 01, 2000. Contact Information : How to contact Summit County real estate agent, Ted Amenta. Office Location : Ted's Breckenridge real estate office locations. Summit County Real Estate Links : This page provides links to other sites which may be of interest to anyone considering the purchase or sale of Summit County real estate. Breckenridge Tourism Guide : Another web site provided by Ted with information on Breckenridge lodging, dining, nightlife, shopping, history, maps, etc. Click here to contact Ted Realtor Ted Amenta is an Associate Broker with RE/MAX Properties of the Summit Each office Independently Owned and Operated Site Map 1 2 3 4 Summit County Gas Prices
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Real Estate - Forbes.com U.S. | EUROPE | ASIA Jump Select Section Home Investment Newsletters Polls & Discussions Premium Tools Special Reports Video & Audio Watchlist IT Research Library IT Product & Service Search Business -Manufacturing -Technology -Commerce -Services -Energy -Healthcare -Small Business Technology -E-Business -Enterprise Tech -Infoimaging -Personal Tech -Science & Medicine -Wireless Markets -Equities -Economy -Commodities -Bonds -Emerging Markets -Currencies Work -Careers -Compensation -Entrepreneurs -Management Lists -Companies --Forbes 500s --Forbes Global 500 --200 Best Small Cos. --400 Best Big Cos. --Largest Private Cos. -People --World's Richest People --100 Top Celebrities --400 Richest Americans --Best Paid CEOs -Places --Best Places Personal Finance -Estate Planning -Funds -Philanthropy -Retirement -Strategies -Taxes Lifestyle -Collecting -Health -Real Estate -Sport -Travel -Vehicles -Wine & Food Columnists Magazines -Forbes Magazine -Forbes Global -Forbes FYI -Forbes ASAP -Best of the Web -Archives -Subscriptions Tools About Us Contact Us Help Reprints/Permissions Sitemap Advertising Conferences Forbes Collection Forbes Mobile Special Advertising Search Quote HOME PAGE FOR THE WORLD'S BUSINESS LEADERS Home Special Advertising Section Paid Advertisement Article When it comes to Real Estate, Knowing Your Stuff is the Key to Success Are you looking to buy or sell a home or other piece of property? The real estate market is a difficult one, and should not be entered casually. With the right information, you can make your venture a success, but all to often lack of foresight and failure to do the proper exploration leave consumers in unfortunate situations that are difficult to rectify. An educated consumer is a happy consumer, and in no market is this truer than the property market. Before you commit, learn as much as you can – whether you’re buying or selling, you’ll never regret doing a little extra research. Real Estate Basics To begin with the basics, let’s consider a few definitions. “Real Property” is legally defined as “land and improvements permanently attached to the land.” Improvements include everything from houses and garages to in-ground swimming pools, but exclude portable items like mobile homes and tool sheds. Also included in real property are substances beneath the land, such as gas, minerals and oil. There are many types of real estate, but most consumers will encounter only two: single-family homes and commercial property. Commercial property may include spaces used for retail, office, shopping, hotels, warehouses, manufacturing facilities, apartment complexes, as well as vacant land zoned to be used for any of those purposes. Aside from specialty properties like farms and industrial sites, almost any property to be used for anything besides a single-family homes is considered commercial. Different rules govern transactions involving each kind of property, and it’s important to know what you will encounter before you get started. The use of any property is limited by zoning laws, which govern the purpose – for example, housing, retail, or industrial – for which the real estate can be used. Zoning laws also restrict the size and height of buildings, the portion of property that may be used for parking, how far buildings must be set from the street and from each other, and whether and what kind of hazardous materials can be stored there. Public easement and right of way laws, which fall into the general category of zoning, outline whether and which parts of private property must be reserved for public use, usually in the form of sidewalks, electrical lines, sewer pipes, fire hydrants and similar public goods. Laws differ from town to town, so if you are looking at multiple locations, keep track of how each municipality’s rules will affect how you can use your property. Choosing a Real Estate Professional Although some people prefer to work on their own, it is usually good to hire a licensed real estate professional if you are looking to buy or sell a house. You may choose between a real estate broker, who is independently licensed to review the entire market and show any house that suits your needs, and a real estate agent who works for a specific company and is usually restricted to showing properties in that company’s listings. Which one you choose will depend on your needs, budget, and the number of real estate companies competing in your area. If there are a large number of companies, you may do better with a broker, but if there are only a few, you can save money by using an agent. No matter what type of professional you choose, there are a few things you should consider before making your decision. How does the agent or broker intend to market your house? How successful has he been in the past, particularly with homes in your range and area? If he is an agent, what is his company’s track record? What is the time limit on the contract you will sign, and can you break it if you’re dissatisfied? Do you feel comfortable that he understands your needs and will work hard to meet them? Recall that, above all, real estate agents are salespeople, so be sure that you are confident that they are working with you as well as for their employers. A great way to narrow down choices is to check the Internet for websites that compare companies and agents in your area. You may also want to talk with friends who have recently moved about their experiences with local agents and brokers. Buying and Selling: What You Need to Know When you are in the market to buy, your individual situation will determine whether or not to hire a professional. You may find that you can do well enough finding suitable listings without the help of an agent. However, if you live in a city where good housing is scarce, you may want to engage someone to help you discern the good from the bad. Real estate agents can also be very helpful when it’s time to close the deal, sorting out what items are included with the house (for example, appliances and furnishings) and working with the seller to divide costs fairly. Although it is possible to sell your home without professional help, but this should be attempted with great caution. A real estate professional will help sort through potential buyers to find people who are serious, work with to get a fair price for your property, and be indispensable at closing time when it comes to dividing up property taxes and other shared costs. In general, as a seller, you should expect to run up against a number of expenses when you close on your house. These may include excise tax (a tax levied on the seller of any property or item), attorney and professional fees, property taxes, real estate commission, and fees for survey, inspection, certification and other items, depending on the laws of the state in which the house is sold. Commercial Property: Buying and Selling If you are looking to buy or sell commercial property, your best bet is to engage a real estate attorney who can advise you on legal matters involving the transfer. As with home purchases, it’s important to have the property inspected thoroughly before committing to buy. You will also want to ensure that zoning laws permit you to renovated buildings to suit your needs – for example, buildings that are zoned as small retail outlets may not always be turned into restaurants; warehouses may not necessarily be converted to apartment complexes. Real estate lawyers will make sure that you know as much as possible about your property before you buy. Do Your Homework Youll be Amazed at the Difference it Makes! The best way to be successful in any real estate transaction is to come in with your eyes open. Listed below or some top real estate websites that can help you find what you're looking for today: HomeGain: Selling Your Home? - Let local real estate agents know about the home you'd like to sell so they can address your specific needs. They will send you customized responses including their credentials, business experience, and commission rates to compete for your business. HomeGain: Buying A Home? - Let local real estate agents know about the home you'd like to buy so they can address your specific needs. They will send you customized responses including their credentials, business experience, and local market knowledge to compete for your business. Foreclosure Search: Simple Real Estate Secrets - Search foreclosures in the USA. Includes bank foreclosures, court foreclosures, pre-foreclosures, homeowners in bankruptcy, HUD homes, VA homes, government homes & more! Make Real Money Investing In Real Estate - Lou Vukas gives you the insider secrets to making real money in real estate regardless of your credit, finances or location. ^ Paid Advertisement Article ^ Ad Information Forbes.com Wireless Reprints / Permissions Subscriber Services ©2004 Forbes.com™ All Rights Reserved Privacy Statement Terms, Conditions and Notice Search Engine Marketing by 360i, Inc.
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METRO DENVER Real Estate, Metro Denver CO Homes for Sale, Highlands Ranch Real Estate Metro Denver Real Estate Toll Free 1-888-406-2259 Denver Real Estate Buyers Denver Real Estate Sellers Or, if you would like us to personally run your daily Denver Real Estate searches for you, click Run It For Me . Community Information + Detailed Maps of Metro Denver Area NEGOTIATING 101 See over 27,000 Metro Denver Home Listings In The Colorado M.L.S. Homes FOR SALE: View Here Servicing All Metro Denver Communities Denver Aurora Castle Rock Cherry Hills Centennial Englewood Greenwood Village Golden Castle Pines Cherry Creek Highlands Ranch Ken-Caryl Ranch Lakewood Littleton Lone Tree Parker Washington Park Castle Rock Area Denver County Douglas County Jefferson County METRO DENVER COMMUNITY INFORMATION + MAPS Denver Encyclopedia WEATHER BY CITY What's Happening In Denver? This comprehensive web site is all you will need to find your next Denver area home or sell the one you now have! There are easy to find answers to all your Denver Real Estate questions. RE / MAX and I are here to assist you through every step of the way. If you have any questions or are ready to buy or sell your Metro Denver Property , please Contact Us . or call (303) 880-4944 . Bill Kosena, a Denver real estate agent , has assisted clients just like you with all their real estate needs since 1978. Have Questions? With 28 years of experience, I have your answers. Receive your answers by e-mail , quickly and without obligation Your privacy is guaranteed! 303-880-4944 Toll Free 1-888-406-2259 OTHER TOPICS OF INTEREST Real Estate Practices In Denver A GUIDE TO BENTONITE Mold Mold Mold... And YOU Current Mortgage Rates Moving Check List What To Know Before Buying From A Builder FREE APPRAISAL "On the House!" Your Water Well Motor Vehicle & Driver's License Conforming Money Increased NEGOTIATING For Dummies Help Yourself To A Healthy Home Current Weather History of Colorado Great Reading! Denver Recreation Seniors Only Kids Only Colorado's Official Web Site Denver Employment Links Ready to BUY a Metro Denver area home? Welcome to Denver Real Estate On Line.com where you have direct access to all Metro Denver listings , extensive buyer information including helpful tips and articles all Denver buyers will find to be invaluable. Ready to SELL your Metro Denver area home? This site can offer your Denver area listing access to over 33,000 viewers every month who are looking for Denver Real Estate . We also offer you the skill and experience necessary to obtain a trouble-free sale that nets you the very highest possible price for your home. Expect a diverse range of marketing strategies that will expose your home to all possible buyers. The marketing plan for your home will be customized to your specific needs and your neighborhood market conditions. And, our 33,000 + monthly viewers will be the first to know your property is on the market. Simply fill out the free Broker Market Analysis form and we'll get back to you right away. Feel free to call 303-880-4944 to discuss specific questions you may have or to schedule an appointment. Featured Homes: - Looking for just the right property Check here first! Buyer/Seller Tips: - Read through helpful tips of information on buying or selling your home! What is your Home's Value? Let us figure out how much your home is worth in today's market! Local Schools: Identify the best school district for your family with our free schools reports. Local Weather: - Get up-to-date information on weather in the surrounding communities. Map & Driving Directions: - Need a map to our office or anywhere else? Denver Real Estate Expert for Highlands Ranch , Denver , Lone Tree , Greenwood Village , Cherry Hills Village , Castle Pines , Parker , Castle Rock , Cherry Creek , Washington Park , Littleton , Centennial, Ken Caryl To Get Answers Or More Information... 1 Please provide the following contact information: Name: Home Phone: E-mail: 2 How can we help you? By submitting this form with your telephone number you are consenting for this website's authorized representatives to contact you even if your name is on the Federal "Do not call List" Thank you for submitting your information. We will be in contact with you by phone or email shortly. Hello, I'm Denver Realtor Bill Kosena . I look forward to assisting you with your real estate needs throughout the Metro Denver area. 303-880-4944 or Bill@DenverRealEstateOnline.com Want to know what they are saying about Bill? 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MemeFirst: New York real-estate prices explained -- MemeFirst December 01, 2005 New York real-estate prices explained The 2.2 million jobs in Manhattan pay, on average, $2,025 per week . (You know that feeling you get when you find out you're below average? I've been having that for years.) Manhattan is 22 square miles, which means that the island of Manhattan pays, on average, $378 per square foot per year . And that includes Washington Heights. Posted by Felix at 02:54 PM GMT All proceeds go to MSF -- Comments #1 Pity we can't all work for Goldman Sachs. Posted by: Gherimiah on December 1, 2005 03:28 PM #2 I'll happily defer to someone with a firmer grasp of stats on this, but in the meantime, I wonder, does that average income number tell you very much? Given the massive disparity in Manhattan incomes, between, say, the dishwasher and the hedge-fund owner, which surely are among the widest in the country, wouldn't you also need to know the distribution of the data points? At a minium, wouldn't you want also to know the median income? Also, is this net or gross? Article talked about paychecks, which could probably mean either. Posted by: Matthew on December 1, 2005 04:36 PM #3 Oh, and also, Felix, presumably the 2.2 million people with jobs in Manhattan don't all live there, so your extrapolation doesn't wash. Posted by: Matthew on December 1, 2005 04:38 PM #4 Obvs mean incomemedian income, and I'd be surprised if more than 40% of Manhattanites made above average. Probably less. But even so. And actually, the fact that there are 2.2 million jobs to 1.5 million people in Manhattan actually only serves to exacerbate the demand-supply imbalance when it comes to real estate. Posted by: Felix on December 1, 2005 04:53 PM #5 I hate to be the one to break this to you, Felix, but nearly all residential housing in Manhattan consists of multi-story buildings. The salary range you describe explains real estate prices in Westchester County, NY and Bergen County, NJ to about the same degree as prices in Manhattan. Posted by: Sterling on December 1, 2005 07:05 PM #6 How delightful that the discussion of property prices one is sometimes unable to defuse at dinner parties just carries on here - almost as if taunting one with its dreary ineluctability. And how nice that Felix should bring along his no doubt expert appreciation of statistical lore. The one thing I am missing is the crucial evaluation of bedbug incidence as it affects property prices in Manhattan. In another thread, Betty has said this bedbug malarkey is all a plan of Bush's. For myself, I prefer to recall that bedbugs tend to originate in Belgium. Schtumm for now. More on this later. Posted by: Claude de Bigny on December 1, 2005 08:40 PM #7 Also, this seems to imply that everyone pays all of their income for housing, which is hopefully not the case. To be more realistic (ignoring the issues rightly brought up by the other commentators, including whether all of those people actually live in Manhattan and whether you can just take the sq ftge of Manhattan as the residential sq ftge), say people on average spend 40% of their income on housing. That gets your income for housing per sq ft to around $151. Posted by: Susan on December 1, 2005 09:14 PM #8 Susan and Sterling, you are embarassingly confused. What percentage of real estate in Manhattan is used for housing? According to this http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/landusefacts/landuse_tables.pdf (in case you are confused by the graph, the percents sum together veritcally and the land area sum horizontally). And even assuming that all "Mixed Residential and Commercial" was used for housing, less than 38% of the land in Manhattan is for housing. These data certainly allow for the idea that much of rent paid in Manhattan is for commercial use, and even then, a considerable percent is used for public space (Central Park alone is 10% of the area of Manhattan). Anyway, the amount people earn in a particular location is not directly related to the amount the people who live there earn, or the amount the people live there pay for rent. Look at this site: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/saipe/index.html The direct link is unavailable, but the Median household income for New York County was 43,573. Nassau County on the other hand is more than 71,000. In which place is it cheaper to rent by the foot? Posted by: Andrew on December 2, 2005 07:22 AM #9 I don't think I'm confused. My points are: a) there is actually quite a bit more than 22 square miles of residential floor space in Manhattan because of vertical construction b) a lot of upper-income Manhattan workers live outside Manhattan, and their buying power lifts prices in tony bedroom communities Posted by: Sterling on December 3, 2005 03:38 PM #10 OK, Sterling, let's do it your way. Assume that each of the 1.5 million residents of Manhattan has 400 square feet to call their own: that works out to 1200 square feet for the average family of three and 1600 square feet for the average family of four. Generous, I'd say. That comes out to 600 million square feet of residential real estate in Manhattan. Using that figure, my calculation actually comes out slightly higher : $386 per square foot per year, rather than $378. What makes you think that there's more than 22 square miles of residential floor space in Manhattan? As for your point b, I fail to see how it is in any way germane. Posted by: Felix on December 3, 2005 11:09 PM #11 OK, 22 square miles equals about 613,324,800 square feet. That would leave each of Manhattan's 1.5 million residents with 409 square feet of living space. But I don't believe that most Manhattan residents are actually so deprived, especially when you take into account common areas in apartment buildings such as laundry facilities, hallways, lobbies, etc. I'd be surprised if the average wasn't at least 600, and it's probably more than 800. And besides, that's not what you originally meant - you were dividing Manhattan's land footprint and not taking into account its vertical expansion. As for the second point, I suspect there's a strong tendency among $100,000 - $1,000,000 per annum Manhattan earners - which is well-off to wealthy-on-a-budget - to live in places like Valhalla and Ho-Ho-Kus, especially if they're married with kids. Family-flight in turn increases the average per-capita-square-footage of the Manhattan residential footprint through bleed-off of children. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 02:29 AM #12 Sterling jumped the shark so long ago it's probably not surprising, but for those of you keeping score at home, he really did just say that the average Manhattanite has 800 square feet of their own. So if you're an average person living with 2 roommates, that means you're in a 2400 square foot apartment. In Manhattan. Yeah. Oh, and that 350 square foot apartment you've got? It's not 350 square feet at all, it's probably more than 4000 square feet. You're just not including the lobby and all the hallways. Posted by: Felix on December 4, 2005 02:43 AM #13 My claim is that the amount of residential-zoned floor space in Manhattan probably works out to between 600 and 800 square feet per resident of Manhattan. You're not only challenging this, but asserting that my claim is absurd. Sure you wanna do that? Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 02:59 AM #14 I've tried to find the statistic, but to no avail. It seems that while office space inventor is measured in square footage, residential space is simply measured, in all documents, by units. But we can work with that. So far I've learned that 82% of zoned lots in Manhattan are residential, making up about 280,000,000 square feet, which includes permanently undeveloped spaces like yards and gardens. If the average height of development across all that land is four stories, then, we're looking at about 750 square feet per person. I've also learned that in 1999 there were about 727,000 residential units in Manhattan , which means that the average unit houses two people. So those three-roomies crammed into one 800-square-foot-tenement-with-the-bathtub-in-the-kitchen examples are mostly fiction. Which is a shame because I get a tingle from the mental picture of Manhattan twenty- and thirty-somethings living in cramped, dingy conditions. If we divide the total residential land area by the total number of units, we get 385 square feet, which works out to 192.5 square feet per person, assuming no dwellings above one story in height and no unimproved/vacant land. If the average height is assumed to be four stories, in this scenario we get about 770 square feet per person. Here's a report from Prudential Douglas Elliman that details its 1Q 2005 sales. Units sold averaged 1,334 square feet, which divided by two yields 767 square feet per person. Breaking it down further we find co-ops averaging 1,197 square feet, condos at 1,496 square feet, luxury at 2,921 and loft at 2,145. So that's 598.5 square feet per person at the low end all the way up to 1,460.5 at the top. There's three separate analytical models for you Felix, all of which yield per-person square footage of 750 or better. I admit they're not all that fleshed out, but I'm stuck inside with a cold watching The Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three on DVD, and I'm disinclined to dig deeper. But you're welcome to. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 04:04 AM #15 Sterling: do your calculations include infrastructure or is the 280MM number a percentage of raw space? Building density is higher here than anywhere else in America, but 15% to circulation (in buildings and streets themeselves) would be an easily defended metric. Counting hallways in urban residential structures is like counting sidewalks as part of sf for suburban homes. As much Sterling does sound like a set designer for Friends, Felix, I gotta say, of the 25 or so apartments of people that I can definitely make an estimate of size, we average 500 sf easy. Most everyone is a half a standard tenement lot (25 x 25), with a couple of lofts and post-war, large-scale developments thrown in. This is skewed because many of them are single (I live in a 2bd alone) or have rent-controlled apartments from way back. Posted by: 99 on December 4, 2005 07:19 PM #16 Where does your 280m sq ft number come from? Your first two calculations are based on it, so I'd like to know. (They're also based on a multiplier of 4, which as far as I can tell came pretty much out of thin air.) As for apartment sales, in Manhattan individual condos and coops tend to be much larger than the apartments inside rental buildings. So if you look just at sold apartments as opposed to rented apartments, you're going to get a skewed figure. What's more, if a 3800-square-foot brownstone in Harlem, say, is sold and then the downstairs floor is rented out, that still counts as a 3800 square foot deal under these figures. Posted by: Felix on December 4, 2005 09:21 PM #17 The multiplier of 4 was back-of-envelope guess. The 280,000,000 number came from this PDF . Sorry, thought I'd linked to it initially. As for rental apartments being smaller than privately owned condos or co-ops...not sure I buy that. But even if it's true, how much smaller could they be? 10%? Doesn't really matter. You can apologize any time now. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 10:06 PM #18 if anyone is real curious why not pony up the $250 to get a list of every tax lot in the city? http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/bytes/applbyte.shtml in the meantime, simply because i am tired of having to read sterlings pontifications about things he knows anything about, i downloaded a list of all the residential tax lots from 14th street and below from propertyshark. only 14th street and below, because after 6000+ entries, i became bored. 14th street down is a good representative sample of the 99000+ residential tax lots in manhattan. it includes spacious luxury lofts of tribeca, tenements of the les, projects on the eastside, high rise high density battery park and half building condo conversions of downtown (note that a rental bldg with multiple units counts as a single tax lot with the number of units listed as a seperate data field). the average unit size works out to 1100sf with 590sf per person (based 2000 census population stats for 14th st & below). this includes all common space in a building as it is based on total building size for single tax lot (rental) buildings and counts common space tax lots for condo buildings (read lobbies, circ, etc.) multiplying back out by the 2000 census population numbers for manhattan of 1,537,195... we get 906,945,050sf of residential space in manhattan. let's call that an even 9Bsf since the city lists 3800 acres of lot area in manhattan (165,500,000sf), that gives a rough overbuild factor of 5.5. this will obviously skew higher with the ues & uws densities without actually affecting the sf/person. summary- -590sf of residential per person (inclusive of common areas). close to sterlings low estimate of 600, but nowhere near the 800sf -1100sf average size per unit (inclusive of common areas). again close to sterlings guess based on broker mumbojumbo, but still below the stated average. -9Bsf of residential space in manhattan sterling- close on your numbers, but not nearly close enough to be quite so pompously smug. stick to things you know about, like why bush is a foreign policy genius. felix- remind me what this related to? Posted by: geoff on December 5, 2005 12:34 AM #19 Geoff - The only reason I was pompously snug is because Felix had reacted to to my estimates with such comedic outrage. Also, I don't think 14th St. and below is a good representative sample. Newer and I suspect more spacious high-rises make up a much larger proportion of housing from the 30s up through the low 100s. So I'm sticking with 600+. I suspect the actual number is around 750, as stated above. As for your justification of your work - "simply because i am tired of having to read sterlings pontifications about things he knows anything about" - I'm not sure what it means. Perhaps you meant to write "nothing" instead of "anything"? I'm not claiming to be right all the time - I am not right all the time. I am, however, pretty much always right whenever Felix gets all worked up and tells me I have no idea what I'm talking about. Thanks for your small role in marking off another example for me to throw back at him at some future date. Posted by: Sterling on December 5, 2005 06:19 AM #20 Renter-occupied apartments are much smaller than owner-occupied apartments. And as the PDF you yourself linked to shows (see page 24), the vast majority of apartments in Manhattan are renter-occupied. Think about it: one needs maybe 350 sq ft per person to live in some reasonable comfort. Beyond that, you're shelling out extra cash for extra space. Owners are happy doing that because they have 100% equity in that space: everyone has heard the advice that they should buy the biggest apartment they can afford. Renters, on the other hand, are simply giving away thousands of dollars in rent every month, with nothing at all to show for it. So they tend to go not for the biggest apartment they can afford, but rather the cheapest apartment they find adequate. Put it this way: Manhattan is full of individuals spending an enormous proportion of their income on outsize mortgage payments. Almost everyone, when they move from renting to buying, sees their monthly housing costs rise substantially. If you move to Manhattan and have a relatively low income, then you might spend a crazy amount of it on rent, it's true. But if your income is average or higher (and remember that average is $2,025 per week), I very much doubt that your rent is making nearly as much of a dent in your paycheck as it would if you owned your own apartment. You reach a standard of living you're comfortable with, and you stop. Anything beyond that is money which you could otherwise spend on clothes, or travel, or restaurants. Whereas if you buy , you're not spending so much as investing. The only money which you're really spending is the interest on your mortgage -- and even that comes with a tax deduction. Or let's put it another way. That Elliman report you linked to has an average sales price of $1.21 million. A typical rental yield in Manhattan these days is 4%, so if rentals were functionally identical to owner-occupied apartments, which you seem to assume, then the average rent in Manhattan would be over $4,000 a month. In fact, of course, it's nowhere near that. Posted by: Felix on December 5, 2005 06:55 AM #21 There's the shark, and then there's the A train. Sterling's Manhattan clearly stops at 96th street. Sterling, dear, north of that bright white line, the housing stock is incredibly stable and consistent in terms of size and layout. Harlem is just now getting it's first 'luxury' apartment building in a half century. Any larger apartment complexes are housing projects, which have smaller units by definition, and, allowing for the dispersal of the towers in some International Style fantasy also insures that the density does not increase much. Posted by: 99 on December 5, 2005 04:03 PM #22 Felix, just because apartments are currently going for $1.21 million a pop doesn't mean that everyone who owns an apartment paid that much. Rent prices move in sympathy with real estate prices but are less prone to bubbles. What you're missing here, and you've missed the same thing when we've talked about the stock market in the past, is the difference between speculative investors and income investors. Speculators don't buy an apartment (or apartment building) primarily for the benefit of the rent; their main motivation is the hope of flipping the property at some later date for a larger sum than they paid for it. The current Manhattan real estate bubble is the product of speculators. Real estate income investors view rent collection as their goal - most apartment buildings in any town or city in the U.S. are owned by income investors. They get less press than speculators, but they also tend to go bankrupt less often. The market value of a rental property can be determined by the amount of rent it generates for the owner, not the other way around. Manhattan rents are high - probably even ludicrously high - but that is a function of large demand chasing relatively low supply, and is only weakly related to current real estate prices. I do acknowledge your point about space not being a priority for Manhattan renters, there is some truth in that. People who do see space as a necessity tend to wind up in rental units in Brooklyn, Queens or Hudson County. But that's not exclusively the case. Posted by: Sterling on December 5, 2005 04:59 PM #23 This thread is hilarious and sad, although a good example of how the same statistics can be applied to support any and all political positions. Posted by: sac on December 5, 2005 06:39 PM #24 Sterling, Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, zero speculators under your definition. No one buys Manhattan property in order to flip it. For one thing, co-op boards (and even condo boards, for that matter) hate flippers, and are likely to punish them. There's flip taxes, brokers' fees of 6% for the seller, and a luxury tax of 1% on any apartment over $1m for the buyer. Prices are so high that the carrying costs are enormous -- and you can't rent out the apartment in the meantime, because that makes it pretty much unsaleable. There are, of course, lots of buildings owned by income investors in New York. Most of the East Village, where I live, is comprised of such buildings: they normally have 20 or so apartments (say 5 floors, 4 apartments per floor), and they've been going up in price almost as much as individual apartments have -- the only reason they haven't gone up just as much is because many of the tenants are rent-controlled or rent-stabilised below market. These are typical New York apartments, from a renter's point of view -- but I can tell you, as someone who was apartment hunting in the East Village for almost a year, they're much less typical from an owner's point of view. Also, there's a strong incentive for for-sale apartments to be as large as possible: price per square foot is positively correlated with size. That's not the case in the rental market: it's easier to rent out a 650sqft apartment for $2500 than it is to rent out a 1300sqft apartment for $5000. Posted by: Felix on December 5, 2005 09:14 PM #25 "Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, zero speculators under your definition. No one buys Manhattan property in order to flip it." Felix, of course people speculate on property in Manhattan. Just because the barriers to entry are high doesn't mean some won't jump them. How else do you think a modest apartment winds up costing as much as a dozen Mercedes-Benz CL500s? Who do you imagine is providing demand at that level? You know banks are not issuing $1,000,000 mortgages to households with joint incomes of $200,000. It's trust fund kiddies - who are often divorced from fiscal reality - and speculators. As for your point about different-sized apartments being suitable for rent versus sale, I might agree with you except for the fact that every rental apartment IS OWNED by someone. It IS PART of the for sale market. I'd be surprised if fewer than half of the condos in Manhattan are rented out by their owners. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 01:51 AM #26 Sterling, I'm afraid the factors leading to high apartment prices are much more mundane than your feverish mind would like to imagine. Lots of global liquidity, driving down interest rates and banks' credit tests. Lots of demand, due to Manhattan's status as the center of the universe and high Wall Street bonuses. And very limited supply. The market for flippers is Miami, not NYC -- where a condo can be bought and sold three or four times before it is even built. As for your point about rental apartments being owned by someone, it sounds clever until you stop to think about what I've already said. Rental buildings are owned by landlords; the vast majority of condos and co-ops are owner-occupied. For one thing, co-ops vastly outnumber condos, and they're hard to rent. And as for condos, they generally get rented out when they're not the place their owner really wants to live. Given how valuable they are, few owners who don't want to live here would rather rent out their condos rather than simply sell them. Take my East Village condo building, for instance: when it went condo in 1983, only one owner lived here. Today, all the units bar one are owner-occupied. I haven't done my homework on this, but I'll happily accept your wager: I'll bet the standard bottle of vintage champagne that more than half the condos in Manhattan are owner-occupied. Deal? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 02:43 AM #27 If you go double or nothing on the proposition that the amount of existing residential floor space in Manhattan divided by the number of residents of Manhattan is equal to or greater than 600 sq. ft., then it's a bet. How are we going to research this? FWIW, I am descended from a man who is reputed to be the first person to negotiate a real estate deal in New York: Wessel Wesselse (ten Broek). He may have been the man to offer 60 guilders (often misreported as $24) as the purchase price of Manhattan from the Canarsies. (Technically the Canarsies didn't own Manhattan Island - it's not for nothing that "Canarsie" is in Brooklyn. Also technically the Dutch West India Company didn't care which tribe owned it. It just needed some bunch of natives to smile and sign off on the deal to keep the English away.) This of course conveys no special knowledge upon me, but it certainly adds a humorous subtext to our disagreement. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 04:14 AM #28 I'm not sure about the terms of the wager: we seem to be betting on two different things at the same time. But spell it out, and I'll be amenable. I do want to ensure, of course, that hallways and elevator shafts and the like do not count as residential floor space. And please also ensure that if one of the propositions can be determined while the other one can't, then the other wager still stands. Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 05:55 AM #29 I'm not sure how we could specify the terms to exclude elevators if they are included in filings. However, it occurs to me that Manhattan Borough probably requires a statement of total dwelling space for its Certificate of Occupancy, so that would work for me. And no, I think double or nothing sounds good to me, especially since we will be attempting to falsify two of my estimations, rather than either of yours. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:20 AM #30 You've lost me, I'm afraid. When you say "double or nothing", are you proposing a 2BVC bet on the residential floor space, and no bet at all on the proportion of condos which are rented out? Or what? It makes no sense to me: "double or nothing" normally happens after A has lost a bet and B has won it. Then going double or nothing means that either B wins double the original amount, or he wins nothing. You essentially run the bet over again. Are you maybe trying to propose something whereby if I lose I lose 2BVCs, and if I win I win nothing? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 07:44 AM #31 Are you trying to squirm out of it? Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:03 PM #32 Sterling, will you propose your bet already? I've already said that I'm likely to accept. Just tell me the terms! Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 06:12 PM #33 I did! Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:25 PM #34 OK, have a few moments now, I had to get someplace before 2pm and the roads are crap with snow and slush. Um, OK. My terms for the bet is those two things specified, avg. sq. footage = 600 and = 50% of condos. Either side has to get both right to collect. gotta run Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:51 PM #35 So if one of us gets both right, he wins 1BVC or 2BVCs? And if one of the two turns out to be unverifiable, then it's a wash? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 07:22 PM #36 Honestly, Felix, I doubt either number is verifiable. Like I wrote above, the city appears to track residential rental inventory by units, rather than by square footage. Also, most owners of condominium units who rent them out do so through agents - even the tenant may be only vaguely aware of the legal status of the unit. In NJ I don't think an individual condo owner even needs to report the unit as a rental property if it's in a building that's already inspected under multi-family housing regulations (or if it's a standalone unit or duplex). The rent revenue has to be reported as taxable income, naturallly, but not to any entity with housing oversight. So make it for one bottle and yes both figures have to be verifiable. That said, if either of us can show a grouping of not-completely-conclusive figures from multiple sources that seem reasonable and fall long or short of my guesses by ten percent or more, then I think we should accept them. (Of course, I have arguably already met this condition with my square footage prediction, and Geoff's calculations don't contradict it under the 10% rule I suggest.) Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 10:05 PM #37 as i mentioned earlier, you can get the sf and unit count for every residential tax lot in the city from the cities web site... google 'bytes of the big apple' and look at the 'pluto' product. the license fee is $250 or you can get the info from propertyshark.com. there are 99000+ listings for manhattan. at 100 listings per page, thats a lot of cutting and pasting into excel. both of these will give you tax lot sizes (whole buildings/unit count or condo unit), which will be inclusive of common area. 10-15% is considered a fairly standard deduction for circulation. mechanical space is not included in the floor area count. happy dueling Posted by: geoff on December 6, 2005 10:29 PM Post a comment Name: Email Address: URL: Remember personal info? Yes No Anti-spam question: Share four cupcakes equally among four people. How many does each person get (in digits)? 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(7) Comments 06/12: geoff: as i mentioned earlier, you can get the sf and unit count for every residential tax lot in the ci 06/12: Sterling: Honestly, Felix, I doubt either number is verifiable. Like I wrote above, the city appears to tr 06/12: Felix: So if one of us gets both right, he wins 1BVC or 2BVCs? And if one of the two turns out to be unv 06/12: Sterling: OK, have a few moments now, I had to get someplace before 2pm and the roads are crap with snow an 06/12: Sterling: I did! 06/12: Felix: Sterling, will you propose your bet already? I've already said that I'm likely to accept. Just te 06/12: Sterling: Are you trying to squirm out of it? 06/12: Felix: You've lost me, I'm afraid. When you say "double or nothing", are you proposing a 2BVC bet on the 06/12: Sterling: I'm not sure how we could specify the terms to exclude elevators if they are included in filings. 06/12: Felix: I'm not sure about the terms of the wager: we seem to be betting on two different things at the s 06/12: Sterling: If you go double or nothing on the proposition that the amount of existing residential floor spac 06/12: Felix: Sterling, I'm afraid the factors leading to high apartment prices are much more mundane than your 06/12: Sterling: "Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, 05/12: Felix: Sterling, Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and p 05/12: sac: This thread is hilarious and sad, although a good example of how the same statistics can be appli 05/12: Sterling: Felix, just because apartments are currently going for $1.21 million a pop doesn't mean that ever 05/12: 99: There's the shark, and then there's the A train. Sterling's Manhattan clearly stops at 96th stree 05/12: Felix: Renter-occupied apartments are much smaller than owner-occupied apartments. And as the < 05/12: Sterling: Geoff - The only reason I was pompously snug is because Felix had reacted to to my estimates with 05/12: geoff: if anyone is real curious why not pony up the $250 to get a list of every tax lot in the city?<br 04/12: Sterling: The multiplier of 4 was back-of-envelope guess. The 280,000,000 number came from <a href 04/12: Felix: Where does your 280m sq ft number come from? Your first two calculations are based on it, so I'd 04/12: 99: Sterling: do your calculations include infrastructure or is the 280MM number a percentage of raw 04/12: Sterling: I've tried to find the statistic, but to no avail. It seems that while office space inventor is 04/12: Sterling: My claim is that the amount of residential-zoned floor space in Manhattan probably works out to b 04/12: Felix: Sterling jumped the shark so long ago it's probably not surprising, but for those of you keeping 04/12: Sterling: OK, 22 square miles equals about 613,324,800 square feet. That would leave each of Manhattan's 1 03/12: Felix: OK, Sterling, let's do it your way. Assume that each of the 1.5 million residents of Manhattan ha 03/12: Sterling: I don't think I'm confused. My points are: a) there is actually quite a bit more than 22 02/12: Andrew: Susan and Sterling, you are embarassingly confused. What percentage of real estate in Manhattan i Trackbacks