real estate prices in

MemeFirst: New York real-estate prices explained -- MemeFirst December 01, 2005 New York real-estate prices explained The 2.2 million jobs in Manhattan pay, on average, $2,025 per week . (You know that feeling you get when you find out you're below average? I've been having that for years.) Manhattan is 22 square miles, which means that the island of Manhattan pays, on average, $378 per square foot per year . And that includes Washington Heights. Posted by Felix at 02:54 PM GMT All proceeds go to MSF -- Comments #1 Pity we can't all work for Goldman Sachs. Posted by: Gherimiah on December 1, 2005 03:28 PM #2 I'll happily defer to someone with a firmer grasp of stats on this, but in the meantime, I wonder, does that average income number tell you very much? Given the massive disparity in Manhattan incomes, between, say, the dishwasher and the hedge-fund owner, which surely are among the widest in the country, wouldn't you also need to know the distribution of the data points? At a minium, wouldn't you want also to know the median income? Also, is this net or gross? Article talked about paychecks, which could probably mean either. Posted by: Matthew on December 1, 2005 04:36 PM #3 Oh, and also, Felix, presumably the 2.2 million people with jobs in Manhattan don't all live there, so your extrapolation doesn't wash. Posted by: Matthew on December 1, 2005 04:38 PM #4 Obvs mean incomemedian income, and I'd be surprised if more than 40% of Manhattanites made above average. Probably less. But even so. And actually, the fact that there are 2.2 million jobs to 1.5 million people in Manhattan actually only serves to exacerbate the demand-supply imbalance when it comes to real estate. Posted by: Felix on December 1, 2005 04:53 PM #5 I hate to be the one to break this to you, Felix, but nearly all residential housing in Manhattan consists of multi-story buildings. The salary range you describe explains real estate prices in Westchester County, NY and Bergen County, NJ to about the same degree as prices in Manhattan. Posted by: Sterling on December 1, 2005 07:05 PM #6 How delightful that the discussion of property prices one is sometimes unable to defuse at dinner parties just carries on here - almost as if taunting one with its dreary ineluctability. And how nice that Felix should bring along his no doubt expert appreciation of statistical lore. The one thing I am missing is the crucial evaluation of bedbug incidence as it affects property prices in Manhattan. In another thread, Betty has said this bedbug malarkey is all a plan of Bush's. For myself, I prefer to recall that bedbugs tend to originate in Belgium. Schtumm for now. More on this later. Posted by: Claude de Bigny on December 1, 2005 08:40 PM #7 Also, this seems to imply that everyone pays all of their income for housing, which is hopefully not the case. To be more realistic (ignoring the issues rightly brought up by the other commentators, including whether all of those people actually live in Manhattan and whether you can just take the sq ftge of Manhattan as the residential sq ftge), say people on average spend 40% of their income on housing. That gets your income for housing per sq ft to around $151. Posted by: Susan on December 1, 2005 09:14 PM #8 Susan and Sterling, you are embarassingly confused. What percentage of real estate in Manhattan is used for housing? According to this http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/landusefacts/landuse_tables.pdf (in case you are confused by the graph, the percents sum together veritcally and the land area sum horizontally). And even assuming that all "Mixed Residential and Commercial" was used for housing, less than 38% of the land in Manhattan is for housing. These data certainly allow for the idea that much of rent paid in Manhattan is for commercial use, and even then, a considerable percent is used for public space (Central Park alone is 10% of the area of Manhattan). Anyway, the amount people earn in a particular location is not directly related to the amount the people who live there earn, or the amount the people live there pay for rent. Look at this site: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/saipe/index.html The direct link is unavailable, but the Median household income for New York County was 43,573. Nassau County on the other hand is more than 71,000. In which place is it cheaper to rent by the foot? Posted by: Andrew on December 2, 2005 07:22 AM #9 I don't think I'm confused. My points are: a) there is actually quite a bit more than 22 square miles of residential floor space in Manhattan because of vertical construction b) a lot of upper-income Manhattan workers live outside Manhattan, and their buying power lifts prices in tony bedroom communities Posted by: Sterling on December 3, 2005 03:38 PM #10 OK, Sterling, let's do it your way. Assume that each of the 1.5 million residents of Manhattan has 400 square feet to call their own: that works out to 1200 square feet for the average family of three and 1600 square feet for the average family of four. Generous, I'd say. That comes out to 600 million square feet of residential real estate in Manhattan. Using that figure, my calculation actually comes out slightly higher : $386 per square foot per year, rather than $378. What makes you think that there's more than 22 square miles of residential floor space in Manhattan? As for your point b, I fail to see how it is in any way germane. Posted by: Felix on December 3, 2005 11:09 PM #11 OK, 22 square miles equals about 613,324,800 square feet. That would leave each of Manhattan's 1.5 million residents with 409 square feet of living space. But I don't believe that most Manhattan residents are actually so deprived, especially when you take into account common areas in apartment buildings such as laundry facilities, hallways, lobbies, etc. I'd be surprised if the average wasn't at least 600, and it's probably more than 800. And besides, that's not what you originally meant - you were dividing Manhattan's land footprint and not taking into account its vertical expansion. As for the second point, I suspect there's a strong tendency among $100,000 - $1,000,000 per annum Manhattan earners - which is well-off to wealthy-on-a-budget - to live in places like Valhalla and Ho-Ho-Kus, especially if they're married with kids. Family-flight in turn increases the average per-capita-square-footage of the Manhattan residential footprint through bleed-off of children. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 02:29 AM #12 Sterling jumped the shark so long ago it's probably not surprising, but for those of you keeping score at home, he really did just say that the average Manhattanite has 800 square feet of their own. So if you're an average person living with 2 roommates, that means you're in a 2400 square foot apartment. In Manhattan. Yeah. Oh, and that 350 square foot apartment you've got? It's not 350 square feet at all, it's probably more than 4000 square feet. You're just not including the lobby and all the hallways. Posted by: Felix on December 4, 2005 02:43 AM #13 My claim is that the amount of residential-zoned floor space in Manhattan probably works out to between 600 and 800 square feet per resident of Manhattan. You're not only challenging this, but asserting that my claim is absurd. Sure you wanna do that? Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 02:59 AM #14 I've tried to find the statistic, but to no avail. It seems that while office space inventor is measured in square footage, residential space is simply measured, in all documents, by units. But we can work with that. So far I've learned that 82% of zoned lots in Manhattan are residential, making up about 280,000,000 square feet, which includes permanently undeveloped spaces like yards and gardens. If the average height of development across all that land is four stories, then, we're looking at about 750 square feet per person. I've also learned that in 1999 there were about 727,000 residential units in Manhattan , which means that the average unit houses two people. So those three-roomies crammed into one 800-square-foot-tenement-with-the-bathtub-in-the-kitchen examples are mostly fiction. Which is a shame because I get a tingle from the mental picture of Manhattan twenty- and thirty-somethings living in cramped, dingy conditions. If we divide the total residential land area by the total number of units, we get 385 square feet, which works out to 192.5 square feet per person, assuming no dwellings above one story in height and no unimproved/vacant land. If the average height is assumed to be four stories, in this scenario we get about 770 square feet per person. Here's a report from Prudential Douglas Elliman that details its 1Q 2005 sales. Units sold averaged 1,334 square feet, which divided by two yields 767 square feet per person. Breaking it down further we find co-ops averaging 1,197 square feet, condos at 1,496 square feet, luxury at 2,921 and loft at 2,145. So that's 598.5 square feet per person at the low end all the way up to 1,460.5 at the top. There's three separate analytical models for you Felix, all of which yield per-person square footage of 750 or better. I admit they're not all that fleshed out, but I'm stuck inside with a cold watching The Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three on DVD, and I'm disinclined to dig deeper. But you're welcome to. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 04:04 AM #15 Sterling: do your calculations include infrastructure or is the 280MM number a percentage of raw space? Building density is higher here than anywhere else in America, but 15% to circulation (in buildings and streets themeselves) would be an easily defended metric. Counting hallways in urban residential structures is like counting sidewalks as part of sf for suburban homes. As much Sterling does sound like a set designer for Friends, Felix, I gotta say, of the 25 or so apartments of people that I can definitely make an estimate of size, we average 500 sf easy. Most everyone is a half a standard tenement lot (25 x 25), with a couple of lofts and post-war, large-scale developments thrown in. This is skewed because many of them are single (I live in a 2bd alone) or have rent-controlled apartments from way back. Posted by: 99 on December 4, 2005 07:19 PM #16 Where does your 280m sq ft number come from? Your first two calculations are based on it, so I'd like to know. (They're also based on a multiplier of 4, which as far as I can tell came pretty much out of thin air.) As for apartment sales, in Manhattan individual condos and coops tend to be much larger than the apartments inside rental buildings. So if you look just at sold apartments as opposed to rented apartments, you're going to get a skewed figure. What's more, if a 3800-square-foot brownstone in Harlem, say, is sold and then the downstairs floor is rented out, that still counts as a 3800 square foot deal under these figures. Posted by: Felix on December 4, 2005 09:21 PM #17 The multiplier of 4 was back-of-envelope guess. The 280,000,000 number came from this PDF . Sorry, thought I'd linked to it initially. As for rental apartments being smaller than privately owned condos or co-ops...not sure I buy that. But even if it's true, how much smaller could they be? 10%? Doesn't really matter. You can apologize any time now. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 10:06 PM #18 if anyone is real curious why not pony up the $250 to get a list of every tax lot in the city? http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/bytes/applbyte.shtml in the meantime, simply because i am tired of having to read sterlings pontifications about things he knows anything about, i downloaded a list of all the residential tax lots from 14th street and below from propertyshark. only 14th street and below, because after 6000+ entries, i became bored. 14th street down is a good representative sample of the 99000+ residential tax lots in manhattan. it includes spacious luxury lofts of tribeca, tenements of the les, projects on the eastside, high rise high density battery park and half building condo conversions of downtown (note that a rental bldg with multiple units counts as a single tax lot with the number of units listed as a seperate data field). the average unit size works out to 1100sf with 590sf per person (based 2000 census population stats for 14th st & below). this includes all common space in a building as it is based on total building size for single tax lot (rental) buildings and counts common space tax lots for condo buildings (read lobbies, circ, etc.) multiplying back out by the 2000 census population numbers for manhattan of 1,537,195... we get 906,945,050sf of residential space in manhattan. let's call that an even 9Bsf since the city lists 3800 acres of lot area in manhattan (165,500,000sf), that gives a rough overbuild factor of 5.5. this will obviously skew higher with the ues & uws densities without actually affecting the sf/person. summary- -590sf of residential per person (inclusive of common areas). close to sterlings low estimate of 600, but nowhere near the 800sf -1100sf average size per unit (inclusive of common areas). again close to sterlings guess based on broker mumbojumbo, but still below the stated average. -9Bsf of residential space in manhattan sterling- close on your numbers, but not nearly close enough to be quite so pompously smug. stick to things you know about, like why bush is a foreign policy genius. felix- remind me what this related to? Posted by: geoff on December 5, 2005 12:34 AM #19 Geoff - The only reason I was pompously snug is because Felix had reacted to to my estimates with such comedic outrage. Also, I don't think 14th St. and below is a good representative sample. Newer and I suspect more spacious high-rises make up a much larger proportion of housing from the 30s up through the low 100s. So I'm sticking with 600+. I suspect the actual number is around 750, as stated above. As for your justification of your work - "simply because i am tired of having to read sterlings pontifications about things he knows anything about" - I'm not sure what it means. Perhaps you meant to write "nothing" instead of "anything"? I'm not claiming to be right all the time - I am not right all the time. I am, however, pretty much always right whenever Felix gets all worked up and tells me I have no idea what I'm talking about. Thanks for your small role in marking off another example for me to throw back at him at some future date. Posted by: Sterling on December 5, 2005 06:19 AM #20 Renter-occupied apartments are much smaller than owner-occupied apartments. And as the PDF you yourself linked to shows (see page 24), the vast majority of apartments in Manhattan are renter-occupied. Think about it: one needs maybe 350 sq ft per person to live in some reasonable comfort. Beyond that, you're shelling out extra cash for extra space. Owners are happy doing that because they have 100% equity in that space: everyone has heard the advice that they should buy the biggest apartment they can afford. Renters, on the other hand, are simply giving away thousands of dollars in rent every month, with nothing at all to show for it. So they tend to go not for the biggest apartment they can afford, but rather the cheapest apartment they find adequate. Put it this way: Manhattan is full of individuals spending an enormous proportion of their income on outsize mortgage payments. Almost everyone, when they move from renting to buying, sees their monthly housing costs rise substantially. If you move to Manhattan and have a relatively low income, then you might spend a crazy amount of it on rent, it's true. But if your income is average or higher (and remember that average is $2,025 per week), I very much doubt that your rent is making nearly as much of a dent in your paycheck as it would if you owned your own apartment. You reach a standard of living you're comfortable with, and you stop. Anything beyond that is money which you could otherwise spend on clothes, or travel, or restaurants. Whereas if you buy , you're not spending so much as investing. The only money which you're really spending is the interest on your mortgage -- and even that comes with a tax deduction. Or let's put it another way. That Elliman report you linked to has an average sales price of $1.21 million. A typical rental yield in Manhattan these days is 4%, so if rentals were functionally identical to owner-occupied apartments, which you seem to assume, then the average rent in Manhattan would be over $4,000 a month. In fact, of course, it's nowhere near that. Posted by: Felix on December 5, 2005 06:55 AM #21 There's the shark, and then there's the A train. Sterling's Manhattan clearly stops at 96th street. Sterling, dear, north of that bright white line, the housing stock is incredibly stable and consistent in terms of size and layout. Harlem is just now getting it's first 'luxury' apartment building in a half century. Any larger apartment complexes are housing projects, which have smaller units by definition, and, allowing for the dispersal of the towers in some International Style fantasy also insures that the density does not increase much. Posted by: 99 on December 5, 2005 04:03 PM #22 Felix, just because apartments are currently going for $1.21 million a pop doesn't mean that everyone who owns an apartment paid that much. Rent prices move in sympathy with real estate prices but are less prone to bubbles. What you're missing here, and you've missed the same thing when we've talked about the stock market in the past, is the difference between speculative investors and income investors. Speculators don't buy an apartment (or apartment building) primarily for the benefit of the rent; their main motivation is the hope of flipping the property at some later date for a larger sum than they paid for it. The current Manhattan real estate bubble is the product of speculators. Real estate income investors view rent collection as their goal - most apartment buildings in any town or city in the U.S. are owned by income investors. They get less press than speculators, but they also tend to go bankrupt less often. The market value of a rental property can be determined by the amount of rent it generates for the owner, not the other way around. Manhattan rents are high - probably even ludicrously high - but that is a function of large demand chasing relatively low supply, and is only weakly related to current real estate prices. I do acknowledge your point about space not being a priority for Manhattan renters, there is some truth in that. People who do see space as a necessity tend to wind up in rental units in Brooklyn, Queens or Hudson County. But that's not exclusively the case. Posted by: Sterling on December 5, 2005 04:59 PM #23 This thread is hilarious and sad, although a good example of how the same statistics can be applied to support any and all political positions. Posted by: sac on December 5, 2005 06:39 PM #24 Sterling, Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, zero speculators under your definition. No one buys Manhattan property in order to flip it. For one thing, co-op boards (and even condo boards, for that matter) hate flippers, and are likely to punish them. There's flip taxes, brokers' fees of 6% for the seller, and a luxury tax of 1% on any apartment over $1m for the buyer. Prices are so high that the carrying costs are enormous -- and you can't rent out the apartment in the meantime, because that makes it pretty much unsaleable. There are, of course, lots of buildings owned by income investors in New York. Most of the East Village, where I live, is comprised of such buildings: they normally have 20 or so apartments (say 5 floors, 4 apartments per floor), and they've been going up in price almost as much as individual apartments have -- the only reason they haven't gone up just as much is because many of the tenants are rent-controlled or rent-stabilised below market. These are typical New York apartments, from a renter's point of view -- but I can tell you, as someone who was apartment hunting in the East Village for almost a year, they're much less typical from an owner's point of view. Also, there's a strong incentive for for-sale apartments to be as large as possible: price per square foot is positively correlated with size. That's not the case in the rental market: it's easier to rent out a 650sqft apartment for $2500 than it is to rent out a 1300sqft apartment for $5000. Posted by: Felix on December 5, 2005 09:14 PM #25 "Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, zero speculators under your definition. No one buys Manhattan property in order to flip it." Felix, of course people speculate on property in Manhattan. Just because the barriers to entry are high doesn't mean some won't jump them. How else do you think a modest apartment winds up costing as much as a dozen Mercedes-Benz CL500s? Who do you imagine is providing demand at that level? You know banks are not issuing $1,000,000 mortgages to households with joint incomes of $200,000. It's trust fund kiddies - who are often divorced from fiscal reality - and speculators. As for your point about different-sized apartments being suitable for rent versus sale, I might agree with you except for the fact that every rental apartment IS OWNED by someone. It IS PART of the for sale market. I'd be surprised if fewer than half of the condos in Manhattan are rented out by their owners. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 01:51 AM #26 Sterling, I'm afraid the factors leading to high apartment prices are much more mundane than your feverish mind would like to imagine. Lots of global liquidity, driving down interest rates and banks' credit tests. Lots of demand, due to Manhattan's status as the center of the universe and high Wall Street bonuses. And very limited supply. The market for flippers is Miami, not NYC -- where a condo can be bought and sold three or four times before it is even built. As for your point about rental apartments being owned by someone, it sounds clever until you stop to think about what I've already said. Rental buildings are owned by landlords; the vast majority of condos and co-ops are owner-occupied. For one thing, co-ops vastly outnumber condos, and they're hard to rent. And as for condos, they generally get rented out when they're not the place their owner really wants to live. Given how valuable they are, few owners who don't want to live here would rather rent out their condos rather than simply sell them. Take my East Village condo building, for instance: when it went condo in 1983, only one owner lived here. Today, all the units bar one are owner-occupied. I haven't done my homework on this, but I'll happily accept your wager: I'll bet the standard bottle of vintage champagne that more than half the condos in Manhattan are owner-occupied. Deal? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 02:43 AM #27 If you go double or nothing on the proposition that the amount of existing residential floor space in Manhattan divided by the number of residents of Manhattan is equal to or greater than 600 sq. ft., then it's a bet. How are we going to research this? FWIW, I am descended from a man who is reputed to be the first person to negotiate a real estate deal in New York: Wessel Wesselse (ten Broek). He may have been the man to offer 60 guilders (often misreported as $24) as the purchase price of Manhattan from the Canarsies. (Technically the Canarsies didn't own Manhattan Island - it's not for nothing that "Canarsie" is in Brooklyn. Also technically the Dutch West India Company didn't care which tribe owned it. It just needed some bunch of natives to smile and sign off on the deal to keep the English away.) This of course conveys no special knowledge upon me, but it certainly adds a humorous subtext to our disagreement. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 04:14 AM #28 I'm not sure about the terms of the wager: we seem to be betting on two different things at the same time. But spell it out, and I'll be amenable. I do want to ensure, of course, that hallways and elevator shafts and the like do not count as residential floor space. And please also ensure that if one of the propositions can be determined while the other one can't, then the other wager still stands. Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 05:55 AM #29 I'm not sure how we could specify the terms to exclude elevators if they are included in filings. However, it occurs to me that Manhattan Borough probably requires a statement of total dwelling space for its Certificate of Occupancy, so that would work for me. And no, I think double or nothing sounds good to me, especially since we will be attempting to falsify two of my estimations, rather than either of yours. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:20 AM #30 You've lost me, I'm afraid. When you say "double or nothing", are you proposing a 2BVC bet on the residential floor space, and no bet at all on the proportion of condos which are rented out? Or what? It makes no sense to me: "double or nothing" normally happens after A has lost a bet and B has won it. Then going double or nothing means that either B wins double the original amount, or he wins nothing. You essentially run the bet over again. Are you maybe trying to propose something whereby if I lose I lose 2BVCs, and if I win I win nothing? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 07:44 AM #31 Are you trying to squirm out of it? Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:03 PM #32 Sterling, will you propose your bet already? I've already said that I'm likely to accept. Just tell me the terms! Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 06:12 PM #33 I did! Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:25 PM #34 OK, have a few moments now, I had to get someplace before 2pm and the roads are crap with snow and slush. Um, OK. My terms for the bet is those two things specified, avg. sq. footage = 600 and = 50% of condos. Either side has to get both right to collect. gotta run Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:51 PM #35 So if one of us gets both right, he wins 1BVC or 2BVCs? And if one of the two turns out to be unverifiable, then it's a wash? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 07:22 PM #36 Honestly, Felix, I doubt either number is verifiable. Like I wrote above, the city appears to track residential rental inventory by units, rather than by square footage. Also, most owners of condominium units who rent them out do so through agents - even the tenant may be only vaguely aware of the legal status of the unit. In NJ I don't think an individual condo owner even needs to report the unit as a rental property if it's in a building that's already inspected under multi-family housing regulations (or if it's a standalone unit or duplex). The rent revenue has to be reported as taxable income, naturallly, but not to any entity with housing oversight. So make it for one bottle and yes both figures have to be verifiable. That said, if either of us can show a grouping of not-completely-conclusive figures from multiple sources that seem reasonable and fall long or short of my guesses by ten percent or more, then I think we should accept them. (Of course, I have arguably already met this condition with my square footage prediction, and Geoff's calculations don't contradict it under the 10% rule I suggest.) Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 10:05 PM #37 as i mentioned earlier, you can get the sf and unit count for every residential tax lot in the city from the cities web site... google 'bytes of the big apple' and look at the 'pluto' product. the license fee is $250 or you can get the info from propertyshark.com. there are 99000+ listings for manhattan. at 100 listings per page, thats a lot of cutting and pasting into excel. both of these will give you tax lot sizes (whole buildings/unit count or condo unit), which will be inclusive of common area. 10-15% is considered a fairly standard deduction for circulation. mechanical space is not included in the floor area count. happy dueling Posted by: geoff on December 6, 2005 10:29 PM Post a comment Name: Email Address: URL: Remember personal info? Yes No Anti-spam question: Share four cupcakes equally among four people. How many does each person get (in digits)? 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(7) Comments 06/12: geoff: as i mentioned earlier, you can get the sf and unit count for every residential tax lot in the ci 06/12: Sterling: Honestly, Felix, I doubt either number is verifiable. Like I wrote above, the city appears to tr 06/12: Felix: So if one of us gets both right, he wins 1BVC or 2BVCs? And if one of the two turns out to be unv 06/12: Sterling: OK, have a few moments now, I had to get someplace before 2pm and the roads are crap with snow an 06/12: Sterling: I did! 06/12: Felix: Sterling, will you propose your bet already? I've already said that I'm likely to accept. Just te 06/12: Sterling: Are you trying to squirm out of it? 06/12: Felix: You've lost me, I'm afraid. When you say "double or nothing", are you proposing a 2BVC bet on the 06/12: Sterling: I'm not sure how we could specify the terms to exclude elevators if they are included in filings. 06/12: Felix: I'm not sure about the terms of the wager: we seem to be betting on two different things at the s 06/12: Sterling: If you go double or nothing on the proposition that the amount of existing residential floor spac 06/12: Felix: Sterling, I'm afraid the factors leading to high apartment prices are much more mundane than your 06/12: Sterling: "Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, 05/12: Felix: Sterling, Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and p 05/12: sac: This thread is hilarious and sad, although a good example of how the same statistics can be appli 05/12: Sterling: Felix, just because apartments are currently going for $1.21 million a pop doesn't mean that ever 05/12: 99: There's the shark, and then there's the A train. Sterling's Manhattan clearly stops at 96th stree 05/12: Felix: Renter-occupied apartments are much smaller than owner-occupied apartments. And as the < 05/12: Sterling: Geoff - The only reason I was pompously snug is because Felix had reacted to to my estimates with 05/12: geoff: if anyone is real curious why not pony up the $250 to get a list of every tax lot in the city?<br 04/12: Sterling: The multiplier of 4 was back-of-envelope guess. The 280,000,000 number came from <a href 04/12: Felix: Where does your 280m sq ft number come from? Your first two calculations are based on it, so I'd 04/12: 99: Sterling: do your calculations include infrastructure or is the 280MM number a percentage of raw 04/12: Sterling: I've tried to find the statistic, but to no avail. It seems that while office space inventor is 04/12: Sterling: My claim is that the amount of residential-zoned floor space in Manhattan probably works out to b 04/12: Felix: Sterling jumped the shark so long ago it's probably not surprising, but for those of you keeping 04/12: Sterling: OK, 22 square miles equals about 613,324,800 square feet. That would leave each of Manhattan's 1 03/12: Felix: OK, Sterling, let's do it your way. Assume that each of the 1.5 million residents of Manhattan ha 03/12: Sterling: I don't think I'm confused. My points are: a) there is actually quite a bit more than 22 02/12: Andrew: Susan and Sterling, you are embarassingly confused. What percentage of real estate in Manhattan i Trackbacks

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USA REAL ESTATE DIRECTORY - INDEXED BY STATE Real Estate Services Indexed by State FIND NEW HOMES | FIND RENTAL APARTMENTS | REAL ESTATE FORECLOSURES Valuecom Real Estate GOLD providesa nationwide forum of Real Estate Agent Listings indexed by state. If you are looking for a real estate agent in your state or one in a state you wish to inquire about propertiesplease select a state below to browse the listing. If you are an agent and would like to sponsor a particular state please contact us by clicking here . Alabama Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Connecticut Delaware Florida Georgia Hawaii Idaho Illinois Indiana Iowa Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Maine Maryland Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire New Jersey New Mexico New York North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania Rhode Island South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont Virginia Washington West Virginia Wisconsin Wyoming ADD LISTING | | SPONSOR A STATE FIND APARTMENTS IN MAJOR US CITIES This service provided by Valuecom © 1995 - 2005 Roger Bredow Find Moving Companies Atlanta Piano Tuning Search for Alabama Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Alabama homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Alabama. Search for apartment rentals in AL, Alabama townhomes, or Real Estate in AL. Alabama Real Estate areas include Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, Mobile, Montgomery, Huntsville, Dothan, Albertville, Anniston, Auburn, Gulf Shores, Alexander City, Decatur, Enterprise, Florence, Fort Payne, Gadsden, Scottsboro, Selma, Troy, Tuskegee, in or about Alabama. Search for Alaska Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Alaska homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Alaska. Search for apartment rentals in AK, Alaska townhomes, or Real Estate in AK. Alaska Real Estate areas include Fairbanks, Anchorage, Juneau, Ketchikan, Kodiak, in or about Alaska. Search for Arizona Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Arizona homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Arizona. Search for apartment rentals in AZ, Arizona townhomes, or Real Estate in AZ. Arizona Real Estate areas include Tucson, Phoenix, Flagstaff, Yuma, Sierra Vista, Prescott, Payson, Lake Havasu City-Kingman, Show Low, in or about Arizona. 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California Real Estate areas include Los Angeles, San Diego, San Jose, San Francisco, Sacramento, Fresno, Riverside, Bakersfield, Stockton, Eureka, Modesto, Salinas, Santa Rosa, Temecula-Murrieta, East Bay, Ventura, Orange County, San Rafael, Santa Cruz, Hanford, Chico, Monterey, Vallejo-Fairfield, Napa, Redding, Visalia, Santa Barbara, Merced, Lake Tahoe, San Luis Obispo, Yuba City, Palm Springs, San Mateo, Clearlake, Ukiah, Grass Valley-Truckee, Crescent City, in or about California. Search for Colorado Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Colorado homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Colorado. Search for apartment rentals in CO, Colorado townhomes, or Real Estate in CO. Colorado Real Estate areas include Denver, Colorado Springs, Pueblo, Boulder, Fort Collins-Loveland, Aspen, Steamboat Springs, Durango, Grand Junction, Canon City, Greeley, Montrose, Silverthorne, Sterling, Vail, in or about Colorado. 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Iowa Real Estate areas include Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Ames, Dubuque, Iowa City, Waterloo, Sioux City, Davenport, Burlington, Clinton, Mason City, Muscatine, Grinnell, Fort Dodge, Marshalltown, in or about Iowa. Search for Kansas Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Kansas homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Kansas. Search for apartment rentals in KS, Kansas townhomes, or Real Estate in KS. Kansas Real Estate areas include Kansas City, Wichita, Topeka, Lawrence, Manhattan, Atchison, Dodge City, Emporia, Hays, Hutchinson, Pittsburg, Salina, in or about Kansas. Search for Kentucky Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Kentucky homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Kentucky. Search for apartment rentals in KY, Kentucky townhomes, or Real Estate in KY. Kentucky Real Estate areas include Lexington, Louisville, Owensboro, Frankfort, Bowling Green, Elizabethtown, Danville, London, Madisonville, Murray, Paducah, Richmond-Berea, in or about Kentucky. Search for Louisiana Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Louisiana homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Louisiana. Search for apartment rentals in LA, Louisiana townhomes, or Real Estate in LA. Louisiana Real Estate areas include New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Shreveport, Lafayette, Monroe, Natchitoches, Houma, Lake Charles, Alexandria, Leesville, Hammond, New Iberia, Ruston, in or about Louisiana. Search for Maine Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Maine homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Maine. Search for apartment rentals in ME, Maine townhomes, or Real Estate in ME. Maine Real Estate areas include Portland, Augusta, Bangor, Farmington, Brunswick, Lewiston-Auburn, Rockland, Waterville, Bar Harbor, Presque Isle, in or about Maine. Search for Maryland Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Maryland homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Maryland. Search for apartment rentals in MD, Maryland townhomes, or Real Estate in MD. Maryland Real Estate areas include Baltimore, Annapolis, Gaithersburg, Frederick, Cambridge, Cumberland, Hagerstown-Martinsburg, Lexington Park, Ocean Pines, Salisbury, in or about Maryland. Search for Massachusetts Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Massachusetts homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Massachusetts. Search for apartment rentals in MA, Massachusetts townhomes, or Real Estate in MA. Massachusetts Real Estate areas include Boston, Worcester, Springfield, Lowell, Framingham, Pittsfield, Taunton, Leominster-Fitchburg, Haverhill, Nantucket, Lawrence, Martha's Vineyard, Amherst, North Shore, Salem, Cape Cod, New Bedford, Brockton, in or about Massachusetts. Search for Michigan Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Michigan homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Michigan. Search for apartment rentals in MI, Michigan townhomes, or Real Estate in MI. Michigan Real Estate areas include Detroit, Grand Rapids, Flint, Lansing, Ann Arbor, Battle Creek, Midland, Royal Oak, Saginaw, Benton Harbor, Jackson, Cadillac, Bay City, Muskegon, Kalamazoo, Traverse City, Monroe, Big Rapids, Houghton, Holland, Mount Pleasant, Marquette, Sault Ste. Marie, Gaylord, in or about Michigan. Search for Minnesota Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Minnesota homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Minnesota. Search for apartment rentals in MN, Minnesota townhomes, or Real Estate in MN. Minnesota Real Estate areas include Minneapolis-St. Paul, New Ulm, Worthington, Winona, St. Cloud, Northfield-Faribault, Mankato, Marshall, Red Wing, Bemidji, Brainerd, Rochester, Duluth, Lake of the Woods, Detroit Lakes, Thief River Falls, in or about Minnesota. Search for Mississippi Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Mississippi homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Mississippi. Search for apartment rentals in MS, Mississippi townhomes, or Real Estate in MS. Mississippi Real Estate areas include Jackson, Corinth, Gulfport-Biloxi, Columbus, Greenville, Greenwood, Grenada, Hattiesburg, Laurel, Meridian, Oxford, Pascagoula, Starkville, Tupelo, Vicksburg, in or about Mississippi. Search for Missouri Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Missouri homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Missouri. Search for apartment rentals in MO, Missouri townhomes, or Real Estate in MO. Missouri Real Estate areas include St. Louis, Springfield, Jefferson City, Cape Girardeau, Branson, Joplin, St. Joseph, Columbia, Fort Leonard Wood, Hannibal, Kirksville, Lebanon, Maryville, Poplar Bluff, Rolla, Sedalia, Sikeston, Warrensburg, West Plains, in or about Missouri. Search for Montana Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Montana homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Montana. Search for apartment rentals in MT, Montana townhomes, or Real Estate in MT. Montana Real Estate areas include Helena, Butte, Great Falls, Missoula, Billings, Bozeman, Kalispell, Bitterroot Valley, in or about Montana. Search for Nebraska Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Nebraska homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Nebraska. Search for apartment rentals in NE, Nebraska townhomes, or Real Estate in NE. Nebraska Real Estate areas include Omaha, Lincoln, Fremont, Grand Island, Hastings, Kearney, North Platte, Scottsbluff, Norfolk, Columbus, in or about Nebraska. Search for Nevada Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Nevada homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Nevada. Search for apartment rentals in NV, Nevada townhomes, or Real Estate in NV. Nevada Real Estate areas include Las Vegas, Reno, Carson City, Elko, Fallon, in or about Nevada. Search for New Hampshire Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , New Hampshire homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in New Hampshire. Search for apartment rentals in NH, New Hampshire townhomes, or Real Estate in NH. New Hampshire Real Estate areas include Manchester, Concord, Nashua, Rochester-Dover, Portsmouth, Berlin, Keene, Lebanon, Lake Winnipesaukee, in or about New Hampshire. Search for New Jersey Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , New Jersey homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in New Jersey. Search for apartment rentals in NJ, New Jersey townhomes, or Real Estate in NJ. New Jersey Real Estate areas include Atlantic City, Newark, Jersey City, Paterson, New Brunswick, Vineland, Monmouth County, Ocean County, Camden, Trenton, Cape May, in or about New Jersey. Search for New Mexico Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , New Mexico homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in New Mexico. Search for apartment rentals in NM, New Mexico townhomes, or Real Estate in NM. New Mexico Real Estate areas include Albuquerque, Los Alamos, Santa Fe, Las Cruces, Alamogordo, Carlsbad-Artesia, Clovis, Deming, Espanola, Farmington, Gallup, Las Vegas, Portales, Roswell, Silver City, Taos, in or about New Mexico. 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North Carolina Real Estate areas include Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh-Durham, Wilmington, Winston-Salem, Fayetteville, Rocky Mount, Jacksonville, Asheville, Goldsboro, Boone, Outer Banks, Greenville, Hickory, Ashe County, Forest City, Elizabeth City, in or about North Carolina. Search for North Dakota Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , North Dakota homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in North Dakota. Search for apartment rentals in ND, North Dakota townhomes, or Real Estate in ND. North Dakota Real Estate areas include Bismarck, Fargo, Grand Forks, Jamestown, Minot, Wahpeton, in or about North Dakota. Search for Ohio Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Ohio homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Ohio. Search for apartment rentals in OH, Ohio townhomes, or Real Estate in OH. 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Oregon Real Estate areas include Portland, Eugene, Salem, Bend, Brookings, Medford, Astoria, Corvallis, Albany, The Dalles, Coos Bay, Grants Pass, Klamath Falls, La Grande, Roseburg, Pendleton, in or about Oregon. Search for Pennsylvania Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Pennsylvania homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Pennsylvania. Search for apartment rentals in PA, Pennsylvania townhomes, or Real Estate in PA. Pennsylvania Real Estate areas include Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Allentown, Erie, Lancaster, Altoona, Scranton--Wilkes-Barre, Reading, Lewisburg, Harrisburg, Johnstown, Chambersburg, Lebanon, State College, Williamsport, York, Bloomsburg, East Stroudsburg, Gettysburg, Huntingdon, in or about diana, Meadville, New Castle, Warren, in or about Pennsylvania. Search for Rhode Island Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Rhode Island homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Rhode Island. Search for apartment rentals in RI, Rhode Island townhomes, or Real Estate in RI. Rhode Island Real Estate areas include Providence, in or about Rhode Island. Search for South Carolina Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , South Carolina homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in South Carolina. Search for apartment rentals in SC, South Carolina townhomes, or Real Estate in SC. South Carolina Real Estate areas include Charleston, Columbia, Greenville, Myrtle Beach, Lancaster, Greenwood, Hilton Head Island, Georgetown, Florence, Sumter, Newberry, Orangeburg, Chester, Seneca, Spartanburg, Union, Anderson, Gaffney, Walterboro, in or about South Carolina. Search for South Dakota Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , South Dakota homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in South Dakota. Search for apartment rentals in SD, South Dakota townhomes, or Real Estate in SD. South Dakota Real Estate areas include Sioux Falls, Rapid City, Aberdeen, Brookings, Huron, Mitchell, Pierre, Spearfish, Watertown, Vermillion-Yankton, in or about South Dakota. Search for Tennessee Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Tennessee homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Tennessee. Search for apartment rentals in TN, Tennessee townhomes, or Real Estate in TN. Tennessee Real Estate areas include Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Sevierville, Cookeville-Crossville, Athens, Clarksville, Cleveland, Columbia, Harriman, Jackson, Johnson City, Kingsport, Martin, Morristown, Paris, Tullahoma, in or about Tennessee. Search for Texas Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Texas homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Texas. Search for apartment rentals in TX, Texas townhomes, or Real Estate in TX. Texas Real Estate areas include Dallas, Fort Worth, El Paso, San Antonio, Amarillo, Austin, Waco, Lubbock, Midland-Odessa, Corpus Christi, Laredo, Brownsville, Abilene, Beaumont, Wichita Falls, Houston, Killeen, College Station, Texarkana, Brownwood, Del Rio, Huntsville, Kingsville, Longview, Lufkin, Marshall, McAllen-Edinburg, Nacogdoches, Plainview, San Angelo, Sherman, Stephenville, Tyler, Victoria, in or about Texas. Search for Utah Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Utah homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Utah. Search for apartment rentals in UT, Utah townhomes, or Real Estate in UT. Utah Real Estate areas include Salt Lake City, St. George, Provo, Logan, Ogden, in or about Utah. Search for Vermont Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Vermont homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Vermont. Search for apartment rentals in VT, Vermont townhomes, or Real Estate in VT. Vermont Real Estate areas include Burlington, Montpelier, Rutland, St. Johnsbury-Newport, Brattleboro, Bennington, in or about Vermont. Search for Virginia Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Virginia homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Virginia. Search for apartment rentals in VA, Virginia townhomes, or Real Estate in VA. Virginia Real Estate areas include Virginia Beach, Norfolk, Richmond, Newport News, Fredericksburg, Roanoke, Lynchburg, Charlottesville, Williamsburg, Blacksburg, Danville, Harrisonburg, Martinsville, Lexington, Staunton-Waynesboro, Winchester, in or about Virginia. Search for Washington Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Washington homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Washington. Search for apartment rentals in WA, Washington townhomes, or Real Estate in WA. 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West Virginia Real Estate areas include Huntington, Charleston, Morgantown, Parkersburg-Marietta, Weirton-Steubenville, Wheeling, Beckley, Bluefield, Clarksburg, Fairmont, Point Pleasant, in or about West Virginia. Search for Wisconsin Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Wisconsin homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Wisconsin. Search for apartment rentals in WI, Wisconsin townhomes, or Real Estate in WI. Wisconsin Real Estate areas include Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee, La Crosse, Appleton, Eau Claire, Janesville, Oshkosh-Neenah, Racine, Sheboygan, Wausau, Baraboo, Beaver Dam, Fond du Lac, Manitowoc, Marinette, Menomonie, Platteville, Stevens Point, Watertown-Fort Atkinson, Whitewater, Wisconsin Rapids-Marshfield, in or about Wisconsin. Search for Wyoming Real Estate, home rentals, Real Estate , Wyoming homes for rent, houses for rent, rental homes, and apartments in Wyoming. Search for apartment rentals in WY, Wyoming townhomes, or Real Estate in WY. Wyoming Real Estate areas include Cheyenne, Casper, Evanston, Gillette, Jackson, Laramie, Riverton, Rock Springs, Sheridan, in or about Wyoming.

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Real Estate News and Tips for Buyers, Sellers & Investors - Inman News HOME | NEWS | JOIN | PRODUCTS | CONFERENCES | ADVERTISE | ADVICE | ABOUT US | CONTACT US | SUBMIT A TIP HOME BUYING, SELLING AND MORTGAGE ADVICE Real Estate Investing Advice Bob Bruss Read Bob's Articles Buying & Selling a House Dian Hymer House Hunting Home Maintenance Paul Bianchina Handy @ Home Mortgage Advice Jack Guttentag Ask the Mortgage Professor REAL ESTATE ADVICE ARTICLES Is open house effective way to market real estate? Homeowner gets discouraging advice Financing your first real estate investment Some strategies benefit both buyer, seller In bankruptcy sale, must co-owner pay 50 percent of expenses? Judge decides whether property co-owner should pay sales costs Home sellers beware: Undisclosed info comes back to bite But owners should use caution on how they disclose Dry rot leaves home buyer in the gutter Do-it-yourself tips on repairing fungus-infected rafters A term every home buyer, real estate agent, homeowner should know What is 'negative amortization?' 'House Poor' a profitable read for home buyers Fact-packed book surpasses misleading title Should landlords rent to section 8 subsidized tenants? Advice for touchy landlord subject Electrical panel requires upgrading Electrician points finger at home inspector Government requirements for disclosure fail to make the grade Federal ARM mandated disclosures fall short of being useful Inside capital gains tax law for real estate Minimum home ownership time just 24 months to claim tax break 5 negotiation tactics for real estate deals What home buyers, sellers and realty agents are likely to encounter America closes doors to architectural expression A look at how the trend evolved Ensuring home's proper ventilation How to deal with house odors No pro-ration if spouse doesn't meet home occupancy test Question on capital gain rule for home sale Can hot tub land homeowner in hot water? Landlord's liability concerning spa A look back at 2005's biggest real estate news Ringing in the New Year by peeking at the past Landlord sued for negligence in gang shooting Did property owner have a duty to protect tenant from violence? Temporary wall solves remodeling question How to cover a window without creating mold risks Home seller gets taken by sneaky real estate agent Why price may not be reason for unsold listing Top New Homes Katherine Salant Your New Home Apartment Living Robert Griswold The Rental Forum Architecture Arrol Gellner Architext Home Inspection Barry Stone Inspectors in the House Do-It-Yourself Home Improvement Bill & Kevin Burnett Sweat Equity Renting Property Helene Lesel Rental Savvy International Guía de Bienes Raíces Canadian Housing Free Resources Real Estate Q&A's Real Estate Glossary Home Defect Guide © 2005 Inman News Home | Privacy | Editorial | Legal | Site Map

Rental Property (Including Rental

Tax Topics - Topic 415 Renting Residential and Vacation Property (formerly Renting Vacation Property and Renting to Relatives) Home | Contact IRS | About IRS | Site Map | Español | Help Advanced Search Search Tips IRS Resources Compliance & Enforcement Contact My Local Office e-file Forms and Publications Frequently Asked Questions News Taxpayer Advocacy Where To File Topic 415 - Renting Residential and Vacation Property (formerly Renting Vacation Property and Renting to Relatives) If you receive rental income from renting to others a dwelling unit, such as a house or an apartment, you may deduct certain expenses. These expenses, which may include interest, taxes, casualty losses, maintenance, utilities, insurance, and depreciation, will reduce the amount of rental income that is taxed. You will generally report such income and expenses on Form 1040 (PDF) and Schedule E . If you are renting to make a profit and do not use the dwelling unit as a home, your deductible rental expenses can be more than your gross rental income, subject to certain limits. Your rental losses, however, may be limited by the "at-risk" rules and the passive activity loss rules. For information on these limits, refer to Publication 925 , Passive Activities and At-Risk Rules . However, if you rent a dwelling unit that you also use as a home, your deductible rental expenses will be limited. You are considered to use a dwelling unit as a home if you use it for personal purposes during the tax year for more than the greater of: 14 days or 10% of the total days it is rented to others at a fair rental price. It is possible that you will use more than one dwelling unit as a home during the year. For example, if you live in your main home for 11 months, your home is a dwelling unit used as a home. If you live in your vacation home for the other 30 days of the year, your vacation home is also a dwelling unit used as a home unless you rent your vacation home to others at a fair rental value for 300 or more days during the year. A day of personal use of a dwelling unit is any day that it is used by: You or any other person who has an interest in it, unless you rent your interest to another owner as his or her main home under a shared equity financing agreement; A member of your family or of a family of any other person who has an interest in it, unless the family member uses it as his or her main home and pays a fair rental price; Anyone under an agreement that lets you use some other dwelling unit; or Anyone at less than fair rental price. If you use the dwelling unit for both rental and personal purposes, you generally must divide your total expenses between the rental use and the personal use based on the number of days used for each purpose. However, you will not be able to deduct your rental expense in excess of your gross rental income. If you itemize your deductions on Form 1040, Schedule A (PDF), you may still be able to deduct mortgage interest, property taxes, and casualty losses on that schedule. There is a special rule if you use a dwelling as a home and rent it for fewer than 15 days. In this case, do not report any of the rental income and do not deduct any expenses as rental expenses. Another special rule applies if you rent part of your home to your employer and provide services for your employer in that rented space. In this case, report the rental income, but do not deduct any expenses as rental expenses. Refer to Publication 527 , Residential Rental Property (Including Rental of Vacation Homes). More Tax Topic Categories Accessibility | FirstGov.gov | Freedom of Information Act | Important Links | IRS Privacy Policy | U.S. Treasury