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real estate prices in

MemeFirst: New York real-estate prices explained -- MemeFirst December 01, 2005 New York real-estate prices explained The 2.2 million jobs in Manhattan pay, on average, $2,025 per week . (You know that feeling you get when you find out you're below average? I've been having that for years.) Manhattan is 22 square miles, which means that the island of Manhattan pays, on average, $378 per square foot per year . And that includes Washington Heights. Posted by Felix at 02:54 PM GMT All proceeds go to MSF -- Comments #1 Pity we can't all work for Goldman Sachs. Posted by: Gherimiah on December 1, 2005 03:28 PM #2 I'll happily defer to someone with a firmer grasp of stats on this, but in the meantime, I wonder, does that average income number tell you very much? Given the massive disparity in Manhattan incomes, between, say, the dishwasher and the hedge-fund owner, which surely are among the widest in the country, wouldn't you also need to know the distribution of the data points? At a minium, wouldn't you want also to know the median income? Also, is this net or gross? Article talked about paychecks, which could probably mean either. Posted by: Matthew on December 1, 2005 04:36 PM #3 Oh, and also, Felix, presumably the 2.2 million people with jobs in Manhattan don't all live there, so your extrapolation doesn't wash. Posted by: Matthew on December 1, 2005 04:38 PM #4 Obvs mean incomemedian income, and I'd be surprised if more than 40% of Manhattanites made above average. Probably less. But even so. And actually, the fact that there are 2.2 million jobs to 1.5 million people in Manhattan actually only serves to exacerbate the demand-supply imbalance when it comes to real estate. Posted by: Felix on December 1, 2005 04:53 PM #5 I hate to be the one to break this to you, Felix, but nearly all residential housing in Manhattan consists of multi-story buildings. The salary range you describe explains real estate prices in Westchester County, NY and Bergen County, NJ to about the same degree as prices in Manhattan. Posted by: Sterling on December 1, 2005 07:05 PM #6 How delightful that the discussion of property prices one is sometimes unable to defuse at dinner parties just carries on here - almost as if taunting one with its dreary ineluctability. And how nice that Felix should bring along his no doubt expert appreciation of statistical lore. The one thing I am missing is the crucial evaluation of bedbug incidence as it affects property prices in Manhattan. In another thread, Betty has said this bedbug malarkey is all a plan of Bush's. For myself, I prefer to recall that bedbugs tend to originate in Belgium. Schtumm for now. More on this later. Posted by: Claude de Bigny on December 1, 2005 08:40 PM #7 Also, this seems to imply that everyone pays all of their income for housing, which is hopefully not the case. To be more realistic (ignoring the issues rightly brought up by the other commentators, including whether all of those people actually live in Manhattan and whether you can just take the sq ftge of Manhattan as the residential sq ftge), say people on average spend 40% of their income on housing. That gets your income for housing per sq ft to around $151. Posted by: Susan on December 1, 2005 09:14 PM #8 Susan and Sterling, you are embarassingly confused. What percentage of real estate in Manhattan is used for housing? According to this http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/landusefacts/landuse_tables.pdf (in case you are confused by the graph, the percents sum together veritcally and the land area sum horizontally). And even assuming that all "Mixed Residential and Commercial" was used for housing, less than 38% of the land in Manhattan is for housing. These data certainly allow for the idea that much of rent paid in Manhattan is for commercial use, and even then, a considerable percent is used for public space (Central Park alone is 10% of the area of Manhattan). Anyway, the amount people earn in a particular location is not directly related to the amount the people who live there earn, or the amount the people live there pay for rent. Look at this site: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/saipe/index.html The direct link is unavailable, but the Median household income for New York County was 43,573. Nassau County on the other hand is more than 71,000. In which place is it cheaper to rent by the foot? Posted by: Andrew on December 2, 2005 07:22 AM #9 I don't think I'm confused. My points are: a) there is actually quite a bit more than 22 square miles of residential floor space in Manhattan because of vertical construction b) a lot of upper-income Manhattan workers live outside Manhattan, and their buying power lifts prices in tony bedroom communities Posted by: Sterling on December 3, 2005 03:38 PM #10 OK, Sterling, let's do it your way. Assume that each of the 1.5 million residents of Manhattan has 400 square feet to call their own: that works out to 1200 square feet for the average family of three and 1600 square feet for the average family of four. Generous, I'd say. That comes out to 600 million square feet of residential real estate in Manhattan. Using that figure, my calculation actually comes out slightly higher : $386 per square foot per year, rather than $378. What makes you think that there's more than 22 square miles of residential floor space in Manhattan? As for your point b, I fail to see how it is in any way germane. Posted by: Felix on December 3, 2005 11:09 PM #11 OK, 22 square miles equals about 613,324,800 square feet. That would leave each of Manhattan's 1.5 million residents with 409 square feet of living space. But I don't believe that most Manhattan residents are actually so deprived, especially when you take into account common areas in apartment buildings such as laundry facilities, hallways, lobbies, etc. I'd be surprised if the average wasn't at least 600, and it's probably more than 800. And besides, that's not what you originally meant - you were dividing Manhattan's land footprint and not taking into account its vertical expansion. As for the second point, I suspect there's a strong tendency among $100,000 - $1,000,000 per annum Manhattan earners - which is well-off to wealthy-on-a-budget - to live in places like Valhalla and Ho-Ho-Kus, especially if they're married with kids. Family-flight in turn increases the average per-capita-square-footage of the Manhattan residential footprint through bleed-off of children. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 02:29 AM #12 Sterling jumped the shark so long ago it's probably not surprising, but for those of you keeping score at home, he really did just say that the average Manhattanite has 800 square feet of their own. So if you're an average person living with 2 roommates, that means you're in a 2400 square foot apartment. In Manhattan. Yeah. Oh, and that 350 square foot apartment you've got? It's not 350 square feet at all, it's probably more than 4000 square feet. You're just not including the lobby and all the hallways. Posted by: Felix on December 4, 2005 02:43 AM #13 My claim is that the amount of residential-zoned floor space in Manhattan probably works out to between 600 and 800 square feet per resident of Manhattan. You're not only challenging this, but asserting that my claim is absurd. Sure you wanna do that? Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 02:59 AM #14 I've tried to find the statistic, but to no avail. It seems that while office space inventor is measured in square footage, residential space is simply measured, in all documents, by units. But we can work with that. So far I've learned that 82% of zoned lots in Manhattan are residential, making up about 280,000,000 square feet, which includes permanently undeveloped spaces like yards and gardens. If the average height of development across all that land is four stories, then, we're looking at about 750 square feet per person. I've also learned that in 1999 there were about 727,000 residential units in Manhattan , which means that the average unit houses two people. So those three-roomies crammed into one 800-square-foot-tenement-with-the-bathtub-in-the-kitchen examples are mostly fiction. Which is a shame because I get a tingle from the mental picture of Manhattan twenty- and thirty-somethings living in cramped, dingy conditions. If we divide the total residential land area by the total number of units, we get 385 square feet, which works out to 192.5 square feet per person, assuming no dwellings above one story in height and no unimproved/vacant land. If the average height is assumed to be four stories, in this scenario we get about 770 square feet per person. Here's a report from Prudential Douglas Elliman that details its 1Q 2005 sales. Units sold averaged 1,334 square feet, which divided by two yields 767 square feet per person. Breaking it down further we find co-ops averaging 1,197 square feet, condos at 1,496 square feet, luxury at 2,921 and loft at 2,145. So that's 598.5 square feet per person at the low end all the way up to 1,460.5 at the top. There's three separate analytical models for you Felix, all of which yield per-person square footage of 750 or better. I admit they're not all that fleshed out, but I'm stuck inside with a cold watching The Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three on DVD, and I'm disinclined to dig deeper. But you're welcome to. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 04:04 AM #15 Sterling: do your calculations include infrastructure or is the 280MM number a percentage of raw space? Building density is higher here than anywhere else in America, but 15% to circulation (in buildings and streets themeselves) would be an easily defended metric. Counting hallways in urban residential structures is like counting sidewalks as part of sf for suburban homes. As much Sterling does sound like a set designer for Friends, Felix, I gotta say, of the 25 or so apartments of people that I can definitely make an estimate of size, we average 500 sf easy. Most everyone is a half a standard tenement lot (25 x 25), with a couple of lofts and post-war, large-scale developments thrown in. This is skewed because many of them are single (I live in a 2bd alone) or have rent-controlled apartments from way back. Posted by: 99 on December 4, 2005 07:19 PM #16 Where does your 280m sq ft number come from? Your first two calculations are based on it, so I'd like to know. (They're also based on a multiplier of 4, which as far as I can tell came pretty much out of thin air.) As for apartment sales, in Manhattan individual condos and coops tend to be much larger than the apartments inside rental buildings. So if you look just at sold apartments as opposed to rented apartments, you're going to get a skewed figure. What's more, if a 3800-square-foot brownstone in Harlem, say, is sold and then the downstairs floor is rented out, that still counts as a 3800 square foot deal under these figures. Posted by: Felix on December 4, 2005 09:21 PM #17 The multiplier of 4 was back-of-envelope guess. The 280,000,000 number came from this PDF . Sorry, thought I'd linked to it initially. As for rental apartments being smaller than privately owned condos or co-ops...not sure I buy that. But even if it's true, how much smaller could they be? 10%? Doesn't really matter. You can apologize any time now. Posted by: Sterling on December 4, 2005 10:06 PM #18 if anyone is real curious why not pony up the $250 to get a list of every tax lot in the city? http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/bytes/applbyte.shtml in the meantime, simply because i am tired of having to read sterlings pontifications about things he knows anything about, i downloaded a list of all the residential tax lots from 14th street and below from propertyshark. only 14th street and below, because after 6000+ entries, i became bored. 14th street down is a good representative sample of the 99000+ residential tax lots in manhattan. it includes spacious luxury lofts of tribeca, tenements of the les, projects on the eastside, high rise high density battery park and half building condo conversions of downtown (note that a rental bldg with multiple units counts as a single tax lot with the number of units listed as a seperate data field). the average unit size works out to 1100sf with 590sf per person (based 2000 census population stats for 14th st & below). this includes all common space in a building as it is based on total building size for single tax lot (rental) buildings and counts common space tax lots for condo buildings (read lobbies, circ, etc.) multiplying back out by the 2000 census population numbers for manhattan of 1,537,195... we get 906,945,050sf of residential space in manhattan. let's call that an even 9Bsf since the city lists 3800 acres of lot area in manhattan (165,500,000sf), that gives a rough overbuild factor of 5.5. this will obviously skew higher with the ues & uws densities without actually affecting the sf/person. summary- -590sf of residential per person (inclusive of common areas). close to sterlings low estimate of 600, but nowhere near the 800sf -1100sf average size per unit (inclusive of common areas). again close to sterlings guess based on broker mumbojumbo, but still below the stated average. -9Bsf of residential space in manhattan sterling- close on your numbers, but not nearly close enough to be quite so pompously smug. stick to things you know about, like why bush is a foreign policy genius. felix- remind me what this related to? Posted by: geoff on December 5, 2005 12:34 AM #19 Geoff - The only reason I was pompously snug is because Felix had reacted to to my estimates with such comedic outrage. Also, I don't think 14th St. and below is a good representative sample. Newer and I suspect more spacious high-rises make up a much larger proportion of housing from the 30s up through the low 100s. So I'm sticking with 600+. I suspect the actual number is around 750, as stated above. As for your justification of your work - "simply because i am tired of having to read sterlings pontifications about things he knows anything about" - I'm not sure what it means. Perhaps you meant to write "nothing" instead of "anything"? I'm not claiming to be right all the time - I am not right all the time. I am, however, pretty much always right whenever Felix gets all worked up and tells me I have no idea what I'm talking about. Thanks for your small role in marking off another example for me to throw back at him at some future date. Posted by: Sterling on December 5, 2005 06:19 AM #20 Renter-occupied apartments are much smaller than owner-occupied apartments. And as the PDF you yourself linked to shows (see page 24), the vast majority of apartments in Manhattan are renter-occupied. Think about it: one needs maybe 350 sq ft per person to live in some reasonable comfort. Beyond that, you're shelling out extra cash for extra space. Owners are happy doing that because they have 100% equity in that space: everyone has heard the advice that they should buy the biggest apartment they can afford. Renters, on the other hand, are simply giving away thousands of dollars in rent every month, with nothing at all to show for it. So they tend to go not for the biggest apartment they can afford, but rather the cheapest apartment they find adequate. Put it this way: Manhattan is full of individuals spending an enormous proportion of their income on outsize mortgage payments. Almost everyone, when they move from renting to buying, sees their monthly housing costs rise substantially. If you move to Manhattan and have a relatively low income, then you might spend a crazy amount of it on rent, it's true. But if your income is average or higher (and remember that average is $2,025 per week), I very much doubt that your rent is making nearly as much of a dent in your paycheck as it would if you owned your own apartment. You reach a standard of living you're comfortable with, and you stop. Anything beyond that is money which you could otherwise spend on clothes, or travel, or restaurants. Whereas if you buy , you're not spending so much as investing. The only money which you're really spending is the interest on your mortgage -- and even that comes with a tax deduction. Or let's put it another way. That Elliman report you linked to has an average sales price of $1.21 million. A typical rental yield in Manhattan these days is 4%, so if rentals were functionally identical to owner-occupied apartments, which you seem to assume, then the average rent in Manhattan would be over $4,000 a month. In fact, of course, it's nowhere near that. Posted by: Felix on December 5, 2005 06:55 AM #21 There's the shark, and then there's the A train. Sterling's Manhattan clearly stops at 96th street. Sterling, dear, north of that bright white line, the housing stock is incredibly stable and consistent in terms of size and layout. Harlem is just now getting it's first 'luxury' apartment building in a half century. Any larger apartment complexes are housing projects, which have smaller units by definition, and, allowing for the dispersal of the towers in some International Style fantasy also insures that the density does not increase much. Posted by: 99 on December 5, 2005 04:03 PM #22 Felix, just because apartments are currently going for $1.21 million a pop doesn't mean that everyone who owns an apartment paid that much. Rent prices move in sympathy with real estate prices but are less prone to bubbles. What you're missing here, and you've missed the same thing when we've talked about the stock market in the past, is the difference between speculative investors and income investors. Speculators don't buy an apartment (or apartment building) primarily for the benefit of the rent; their main motivation is the hope of flipping the property at some later date for a larger sum than they paid for it. The current Manhattan real estate bubble is the product of speculators. Real estate income investors view rent collection as their goal - most apartment buildings in any town or city in the U.S. are owned by income investors. They get less press than speculators, but they also tend to go bankrupt less often. The market value of a rental property can be determined by the amount of rent it generates for the owner, not the other way around. Manhattan rents are high - probably even ludicrously high - but that is a function of large demand chasing relatively low supply, and is only weakly related to current real estate prices. I do acknowledge your point about space not being a priority for Manhattan renters, there is some truth in that. People who do see space as a necessity tend to wind up in rental units in Brooklyn, Queens or Hudson County. But that's not exclusively the case. Posted by: Sterling on December 5, 2005 04:59 PM #23 This thread is hilarious and sad, although a good example of how the same statistics can be applied to support any and all political positions. Posted by: sac on December 5, 2005 06:39 PM #24 Sterling, Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, zero speculators under your definition. No one buys Manhattan property in order to flip it. For one thing, co-op boards (and even condo boards, for that matter) hate flippers, and are likely to punish them. There's flip taxes, brokers' fees of 6% for the seller, and a luxury tax of 1% on any apartment over $1m for the buyer. Prices are so high that the carrying costs are enormous -- and you can't rent out the apartment in the meantime, because that makes it pretty much unsaleable. There are, of course, lots of buildings owned by income investors in New York. Most of the East Village, where I live, is comprised of such buildings: they normally have 20 or so apartments (say 5 floors, 4 apartments per floor), and they've been going up in price almost as much as individual apartments have -- the only reason they haven't gone up just as much is because many of the tenants are rent-controlled or rent-stabilised below market. These are typical New York apartments, from a renter's point of view -- but I can tell you, as someone who was apartment hunting in the East Village for almost a year, they're much less typical from an owner's point of view. Also, there's a strong incentive for for-sale apartments to be as large as possible: price per square foot is positively correlated with size. That's not the case in the rental market: it's easier to rent out a 650sqft apartment for $2500 than it is to rent out a 1300sqft apartment for $5000. Posted by: Felix on December 5, 2005 09:14 PM #25 "Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, zero speculators under your definition. No one buys Manhattan property in order to flip it." Felix, of course people speculate on property in Manhattan. Just because the barriers to entry are high doesn't mean some won't jump them. How else do you think a modest apartment winds up costing as much as a dozen Mercedes-Benz CL500s? Who do you imagine is providing demand at that level? You know banks are not issuing $1,000,000 mortgages to households with joint incomes of $200,000. It's trust fund kiddies - who are often divorced from fiscal reality - and speculators. As for your point about different-sized apartments being suitable for rent versus sale, I might agree with you except for the fact that every rental apartment IS OWNED by someone. It IS PART of the for sale market. I'd be surprised if fewer than half of the condos in Manhattan are rented out by their owners. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 01:51 AM #26 Sterling, I'm afraid the factors leading to high apartment prices are much more mundane than your feverish mind would like to imagine. Lots of global liquidity, driving down interest rates and banks' credit tests. Lots of demand, due to Manhattan's status as the center of the universe and high Wall Street bonuses. And very limited supply. The market for flippers is Miami, not NYC -- where a condo can be bought and sold three or four times before it is even built. As for your point about rental apartments being owned by someone, it sounds clever until you stop to think about what I've already said. Rental buildings are owned by landlords; the vast majority of condos and co-ops are owner-occupied. For one thing, co-ops vastly outnumber condos, and they're hard to rent. And as for condos, they generally get rented out when they're not the place their owner really wants to live. Given how valuable they are, few owners who don't want to live here would rather rent out their condos rather than simply sell them. Take my East Village condo building, for instance: when it went condo in 1983, only one owner lived here. Today, all the units bar one are owner-occupied. I haven't done my homework on this, but I'll happily accept your wager: I'll bet the standard bottle of vintage champagne that more than half the condos in Manhattan are owner-occupied. Deal? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 02:43 AM #27 If you go double or nothing on the proposition that the amount of existing residential floor space in Manhattan divided by the number of residents of Manhattan is equal to or greater than 600 sq. ft., then it's a bet. How are we going to research this? FWIW, I am descended from a man who is reputed to be the first person to negotiate a real estate deal in New York: Wessel Wesselse (ten Broek). He may have been the man to offer 60 guilders (often misreported as $24) as the purchase price of Manhattan from the Canarsies. (Technically the Canarsies didn't own Manhattan Island - it's not for nothing that "Canarsie" is in Brooklyn. Also technically the Dutch West India Company didn't care which tribe owned it. It just needed some bunch of natives to smile and sign off on the deal to keep the English away.) This of course conveys no special knowledge upon me, but it certainly adds a humorous subtext to our disagreement. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 04:14 AM #28 I'm not sure about the terms of the wager: we seem to be betting on two different things at the same time. But spell it out, and I'll be amenable. I do want to ensure, of course, that hallways and elevator shafts and the like do not count as residential floor space. And please also ensure that if one of the propositions can be determined while the other one can't, then the other wager still stands. Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 05:55 AM #29 I'm not sure how we could specify the terms to exclude elevators if they are included in filings. However, it occurs to me that Manhattan Borough probably requires a statement of total dwelling space for its Certificate of Occupancy, so that would work for me. And no, I think double or nothing sounds good to me, especially since we will be attempting to falsify two of my estimations, rather than either of yours. Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:20 AM #30 You've lost me, I'm afraid. When you say "double or nothing", are you proposing a 2BVC bet on the residential floor space, and no bet at all on the proportion of condos which are rented out? Or what? It makes no sense to me: "double or nothing" normally happens after A has lost a bet and B has won it. Then going double or nothing means that either B wins double the original amount, or he wins nothing. You essentially run the bet over again. Are you maybe trying to propose something whereby if I lose I lose 2BVCs, and if I win I win nothing? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 07:44 AM #31 Are you trying to squirm out of it? Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:03 PM #32 Sterling, will you propose your bet already? I've already said that I'm likely to accept. Just tell me the terms! Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 06:12 PM #33 I did! Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:25 PM #34 OK, have a few moments now, I had to get someplace before 2pm and the roads are crap with snow and slush. Um, OK. My terms for the bet is those two things specified, avg. sq. footage = 600 and = 50% of condos. Either side has to get both right to collect. gotta run Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 06:51 PM #35 So if one of us gets both right, he wins 1BVC or 2BVCs? And if one of the two turns out to be unverifiable, then it's a wash? Posted by: Felix on December 6, 2005 07:22 PM #36 Honestly, Felix, I doubt either number is verifiable. Like I wrote above, the city appears to track residential rental inventory by units, rather than by square footage. Also, most owners of condominium units who rent them out do so through agents - even the tenant may be only vaguely aware of the legal status of the unit. In NJ I don't think an individual condo owner even needs to report the unit as a rental property if it's in a building that's already inspected under multi-family housing regulations (or if it's a standalone unit or duplex). The rent revenue has to be reported as taxable income, naturallly, but not to any entity with housing oversight. So make it for one bottle and yes both figures have to be verifiable. That said, if either of us can show a grouping of not-completely-conclusive figures from multiple sources that seem reasonable and fall long or short of my guesses by ten percent or more, then I think we should accept them. (Of course, I have arguably already met this condition with my square footage prediction, and Geoff's calculations don't contradict it under the 10% rule I suggest.) Posted by: Sterling on December 6, 2005 10:05 PM #37 as i mentioned earlier, you can get the sf and unit count for every residential tax lot in the city from the cities web site... google 'bytes of the big apple' and look at the 'pluto' product. the license fee is $250 or you can get the info from propertyshark.com. there are 99000+ listings for manhattan. at 100 listings per page, thats a lot of cutting and pasting into excel. both of these will give you tax lot sizes (whole buildings/unit count or condo unit), which will be inclusive of common area. 10-15% is considered a fairly standard deduction for circulation. mechanical space is not included in the floor area count. happy dueling Posted by: geoff on December 6, 2005 10:29 PM Post a comment Name: Email Address: URL: Remember personal info? Yes No Anti-spam question: Share four cupcakes equally among four people. How many does each person get (in digits)? 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(7) Comments 06/12: geoff: as i mentioned earlier, you can get the sf and unit count for every residential tax lot in the ci 06/12: Sterling: Honestly, Felix, I doubt either number is verifiable. Like I wrote above, the city appears to tr 06/12: Felix: So if one of us gets both right, he wins 1BVC or 2BVCs? And if one of the two turns out to be unv 06/12: Sterling: OK, have a few moments now, I had to get someplace before 2pm and the roads are crap with snow an 06/12: Sterling: I did! 06/12: Felix: Sterling, will you propose your bet already? I've already said that I'm likely to accept. Just te 06/12: Sterling: Are you trying to squirm out of it? 06/12: Felix: You've lost me, I'm afraid. When you say "double or nothing", are you proposing a 2BVC bet on the 06/12: Sterling: I'm not sure how we could specify the terms to exclude elevators if they are included in filings. 06/12: Felix: I'm not sure about the terms of the wager: we seem to be betting on two different things at the s 06/12: Sterling: If you go double or nothing on the proposition that the amount of existing residential floor spac 06/12: Felix: Sterling, I'm afraid the factors leading to high apartment prices are much more mundane than your 06/12: Sterling: "Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and purposes, 05/12: Felix: Sterling, Manhattan is the one real-estate market in the US where there are, to all intents and p 05/12: sac: This thread is hilarious and sad, although a good example of how the same statistics can be appli 05/12: Sterling: Felix, just because apartments are currently going for $1.21 million a pop doesn't mean that ever 05/12: 99: There's the shark, and then there's the A train. Sterling's Manhattan clearly stops at 96th stree 05/12: Felix: Renter-occupied apartments are much smaller than owner-occupied apartments. And as the < 05/12: Sterling: Geoff - The only reason I was pompously snug is because Felix had reacted to to my estimates with 05/12: geoff: if anyone is real curious why not pony up the $250 to get a list of every tax lot in the city?<br 04/12: Sterling: The multiplier of 4 was back-of-envelope guess. The 280,000,000 number came from <a href 04/12: Felix: Where does your 280m sq ft number come from? Your first two calculations are based on it, so I'd 04/12: 99: Sterling: do your calculations include infrastructure or is the 280MM number a percentage of raw 04/12: Sterling: I've tried to find the statistic, but to no avail. It seems that while office space inventor is 04/12: Sterling: My claim is that the amount of residential-zoned floor space in Manhattan probably works out to b 04/12: Felix: Sterling jumped the shark so long ago it's probably not surprising, but for those of you keeping 04/12: Sterling: OK, 22 square miles equals about 613,324,800 square feet. That would leave each of Manhattan's 1 03/12: Felix: OK, Sterling, let's do it your way. Assume that each of the 1.5 million residents of Manhattan ha 03/12: Sterling: I don't think I'm confused. My points are: a) there is actually quite a bit more than 22 02/12: Andrew: Susan and Sterling, you are embarassingly confused. What percentage of real estate in Manhattan i Trackbacks

House RentalFees Rental fees

Renting Historic Samuel Cupples House | Saint Louis University text only | | about slu | | apply now | | contact slu | | give online | | slu home | | quicklinks Admissions Academics Academic Calendar Admin Offices Banner Billiken Athletics Campus Life Career Services Colleges and Schools Events on Campus Financial Aid Gateway: Intranet Giving to SLU Libraries Ministry and Outreach Museums and Art People Finder Research Resources for Reporters Safety Student Health SLUCare Technology Web Email WebCT Working at SLU | | | | a-to-z search Eleanor Turshin Glass Collection Now Open Preview the Collection General Information Directions and Map Cupples Museum Shop Art Collections Family and House History 1890 Virtual House Tour R. M. S. Republic Links Cupples Family Survives Disaster! Types of Tours Rent Cupples House Become A Member Fr. Maurice McNamee Fr. McNamee: The Visionary Who Saved Samuel Cupples House Home Guidelinesfor Event Rentalsat Saint Louis University's Historic Samuel Cupples House University Events Services: 977-3728, or 977-7162or 977-3729 (The Cupples House staff does not reserve or bookevents.) These guidelines are in place to prevent accidentsand damage to the historic Cupples House and art collections. We ask that yourespect the historic nature of Samuel Cupples House. Your signature on theconfirmation letter and contract is your acknowledgement that the SamuelCupples House is rented only in compliance with the following: General Only the first and second floors of Cupples House are opened for events scheduled at Cupples House. Sit-down dinners limited to 60 in attendance. Stand-up receptions limited to 150 guests. No smoking in Cupples House on any floors; in galleries, bathrooms or kitchen. No taper candles allowed. Votive candles may be used only if part of a floral table arrangements. Floral arrangements are limited to table centerpieces only. Personal property left at Cupples House will be held for two days only unless other arrangements are made. Cupples House assumes no responsibility for personal property during or after an event. Telephone may be used only in an emergency. Physicians should identify themselves to Cupples House staff if medical calls are expected. Music No dancing is permitted. No brass, band or amplified instruments. String instruments and piano music only. Prohibited Access Backstairs may not be used except in case of emergency. No windows on any floors can be opened. No access to the third floor. No access to exterior balconies on any floor. No access to staff offices, kitchen, storerooms, rooms under installation or otherwise marked as private. Guests Children under the age of 12 are not permitted in the house. No animals allowed except seeing eye dogs with advance permission. Handicapped access is limited to the first floor. Disabled guests should notify event services in advance. Refreshments No alcoholic beverage may be served to anyone under the age of 21. No liquor, beer, or wine may be brought in from outside. Alcoholic beverages must be ordered through our designated caterer only. No outside food may be brought in. University caterer is recommended but not required. Outside caterer must meet with Cupples House director prior to signing reservation contract. No food or drink is permitted on the upper floors of Cupples House. Parties are limited to the first floor only. No food or drink allowed on antique furniture or textiles. Red wine is not permitted in the Conservatory. If accidental spills occur, we request you notify an event services staff member so that the spill may be cleaned up immediately. Table, Bar Set-Up and SpecialEquipment Your event services contact will supply client with examples of table set-up. In order to comply with safety codes, table arrangements may have to be changed in order to keep exit clear and to protect antique furniture. Special needs for podium, reception or presentation tables must be requested no later than one week prior to event. Piano and/or electronic equipment needs must be made at time of booking. Cupples House does not supply electronic equipment. (Screens, slide projectors, carts, VCRs, extension cords, etc.) Event Services can assist the client in arranging this equipment. Deliveries Cupples House has limited storage space for outside deliveries. Deliveries accepted only on the day of the event. All deliveries for evening events must be picked up by 10:30 a.m. on the next business day. Please advise your Event Services contact two days in advance to arrange access. A list of deliveries and the company names must be provided in advance in order to arrange parking gate access. This includes, florists, musicians, party rentals and musical instruments. Parking Visitors are directed to park in the Saint Louis University garage at Grand and Laclede. Photography Photography strictly for personal use is allowed. Photography for reproduction or commercial use is not allowed without prior permission from the Saint Louis University Marketing and Communications Department. To prevent damage, photography, video cameras and photography lighting cannot be directed onto any painting, print or photograph. Cupples House reserves theright to restrict the use of any electronic equipment. Consideration of the Fine andDecorative Art Collection and Historical House No sitting on antique furniture; especially furniture tied off by ribbons. No decorations may be hung, taped, stapled or otherwise attached to the interior architecture or furniture. No furniture or objects may be moved unless approved and supervised by Cupples House staff. If front porch or porte-cochere is used for a reception area, all signs, tables and debris must be removed at the end of the event. Samuel Cupples House RentalFees Rental fees are based on afour-hour rental. Additional hours over four are charged at $100 per each hour. Our closing time is 10:30 p.m. All guests must vacate no later than 11p.m. Cupples House is available for two hour wedding photography sessions.Additional time past the two hour session will be assessed at $100 per each hour. Hours Daytime events: Mondays only. 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. Evening events: Mondaysthrough Sundays. 6 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. Fees/Charges Booking fee four hour reservation of the 1 st and 2 nd floor of Cupples House $250, university departments. $300, university faculty, staff, partners. $750, external group. Weekend surcharge (Fri., Sat., Sunday) $50, university departments $50, university faculty, staff, partners $250, external group Attendant fee $100, university departments $100, university faculty, staff, partners $200, external group Housekeeping fee $50 per 50 guests Piano fee $100 Wedding Photography (up to two hours) $175 Damage Deposit for allexternal rentals $250 How to Make Reservations andPayment: Call University EventsServices: 977-3728, or 977-7162 or 977-3729 Rental of Samuel Cupples Houseis determined on the appropriate nature of the event and on a first-come,first-served basis. Cupples House is unavailableduring the following periods: The month of January, the month of August, allmajor holidays and the weekends surrounding major holidays. These are: NewYear's Day, Easter, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Dayand Christmas Day. In addition, Cupples House isnot available the week preceding Commencement on the third Saturday of May, andvarious other dates when the University is closed. In some circumstances, the Universityadministration and/or some departments have necessary priority in bookingcertain annual functions. These periods are in conjunction with the opening andclosing months of the academic year and the Thanksgiving to Christmas season. The following types of eventsare not appropriate for Cupples House rental: Wedding ceremonies or photography events Events which serve as a promotion for alcohol or tobacco products Events which have band instruments or dancing Fundraising events for non-University clients Photography or film location shoots without prior permission of the Saint Louis University Marketing and Communications Department Reservations: Reservations will be held for10 days after the mailing of the Event Booking/Reservation form.After returning your space reservation sheet with the required fee, you will besent a special events guidelines packet. Please read the guidelines carefullyto make sure that your planning and interests comply with the list ofregulations. Your deposit or IDO confirmsyour reservation. If not received within 10 days, the date is released to otherpossible clients. Payment Balance for external clientsis due two weeks prior to date of event. Certificate of Insurance forexternal clients due 10 days prior to date of event. Damage Deposit External Clients: A damage deposit of $250 isnecessary for every event. This deposit will be held andthen returned to the client within 10 days after the event assuming thatCupples House was not damaged during your event.. University Departments: The University insurancecarries a deductible of $1,000 so that Cupples House cannot submit claims belowthat amount. Damage that occurs to the interior woodwork, or furniture or artcollection below $1,000 will be billed to the University department along witha statement of loss or repair estimate. Refunds To hold a space, 100 percentof the room cost and administration fee are required. The remaining fees mustbe paid two weeks before the event. If you cancel, all fees except theadministrative fee will be returned one month prior to the event. Half of thedown payment will be returned if the event is canceled two weeks to one monthprior. If the event is canceled less than two weeks prior to the event, no feewill be returned. History Links | Samuel Cupples | Women's Page Chronology | Architecture | Gilded Age about slu | apply now | contact slu | give online | slu home ©1818 - 2005 SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY Where Knowledge Touches Lives ®

home equity loan or

FRB: Putting Your Home on the Loan Line Is Risky Business ESPAÑOL Are you in need of cash? Do you want to consolidate your debts? Are you receiving home equity loan or refinancing offers that seem too good to be true? Does your home need repairs that contractors tell you can be easily financed? If you are a homeowner who needs money to pay bills or for home repairs, you may think a home equity loan is the answer. But not all loans and lenders are the same--you should shop around. The cost of doing business with high-cost lenders can be excessive and, sometimes, downright abusive. For example, certain lenders--often called "predatory lenders"--target homeowners who have low incomes or credit problems or who are elderly by deceiving them about loan terms or giving them loans they cannot afford to repay. Borrowing from an unscrupulous lender, especially one who offers you a high-cost loan using your home as security, is risky business. You could lose your home and your money. Before you sign on the line, Think about your options Do your homework Think twice before you sign Know that you have rights under the law Think about Your Options If you’re having money problems, consider these options before you put your home on the loan line. Talk with your creditors or with representatives of non-profit or other reputable credit or budget counseling organizations to work out a plan that reduces your bill payments to a more manageable level. Contact your local social service agency, community or religious groups, and local or state housing agencies. They may have programs that help consumers, including the elderly and those with disabilities, with energy bills, home repairs, or other emergency needs. Contact a local housing counseling agency to discuss your needs. Call the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development toll-free at 800-569-4287 or visit www.hud.gov/offices/hsg/sfh/hcc/hccprof14.cfm to find a center near you. Talk with someone other than the lender or broker offering the loan who is knowledgeable and you trust before making any decisions. Remember, if you decide to get a home equity loan and can’t make the payments, the lender could foreclose and you would lose your home. If you decide a loan is right for you, talk with several lenders, including at least one bank, savings and loan, or credit union in your community. Their loans may cost less than loans from finance companies. And don’t assume that if you’re on a fixed income or have credit problems, you won’t qualify for a loan from a bank, savings and loan, or credit union--they may have the loan you want! Do Your Homework Contact several lenders--and be very careful about dealing with a lender who just appears at your door, calls you, or sends you mail. Ask friends and family for recommendations of lenders. Talk with banks, savings and loans, credit unions, and other lenders. If you choose to use a mortgage broker, remember they arrange loans but most do not lend directly. Compare their offers with those of other direct lenders. Be wary of home repair contractors that offer to arrange financing. You should still talk with other lenders to make sure you get the best deal. You may want to have the loan proceeds sent directly to you, not the contractor. Comparison shop. Comparing loan plans can help you get a better deal. Whether you begin your shopping by reading ads in your local newspapers, searching on the Internet, or looking in the phone book, ask lenders to explain the best loan plans they have for you. Beware of loan terms and conditions that may mean higher costs for you. Get answers to these questions and use the worksheet to compare loan plans: Interest Rate and Payments What are the monthly payments? Ask yourself if you can afford them. What is the annual percentage rate (APR) on the loan? The APR is the cost of credit, expressed as a yearly rate. You can use the APR to compare one loan with another. Will the interest rate change during the life of the loan? If so, when, how often, and by how much? Term of Loan How many years will you have to repay the loan? Is this a loan or a line of credit? A loan is for a fixed amount of money for a specific period of time; a line of credit is an amount of money you can draw as you need it. Is there a balloon payment--a large single payment at the end of the loan term after a series of low monthly payments? When the balloon payment is due, you must pay the entire amount. Points and Fees What will you have to pay in points and fees? One point equals 1 percent of the loan amount (1 point on a $10,000 loan is $100). Generally, the higher the points, the lower the interest rate. If points and fees are more than 5 percent of the loan amount, ask why. Traditional financial institutions normally charge between 1 and 3 percent of the loan amount in points and fees. Are any of the application fees refundable if you don’t get the loan? How and how much will the the lender or broker be paid? Lenders and brokers may charge points or fees that you must pay at closing or add on to the cost of your loan, or both. Penalties What is the penalty for late or missed payments? What is the penalty if you pay off or refinance the loan early (that is, is there a pre-payment penalty)? Credit Insurance Does the loan package include optional credit insurance, such as credit life, disability, or unemployment insurance? Depending on the type of policy, credit insurance can cover some or all of your payments if you can't make them. Understand that you don’t have to buy optional credit insurance--that’s why it’s called “optional.” Don’t buy insurance you don’t need. Credit insurance may be a bad deal for you, especially if the premiums are collected up-front at the closing and financed as part of the loan. If you want optional credit insurance, ask if you can pay for it on a monthly basis after the loan is approved and closed. With monthly insurance premiums, you don't pay interest and you can decide to cancel if the premiums are too high or if you believe you no longer want the insurance. After you have answers to these questions, start negotiating with more than one lender. Don’t be afraid to make lenders and brokers compete for your business by letting them know you are shopping for the best deal. Ask each lender to lower the points, fees, or interest rate. And ask each to meet--or beat--the terms of the other lenders. Once You’ve Selected a Lender, Get the Following A “Good Faith Estimate” of all loan charges. The estimate must be sent within 3 days of applying. Blank copies of the forms you’ll sign at closing, when the loan is final. Study them. If you don’t understand something, ask for an explanation. Advance copies of the forms you’ll sign at closing with the terms filled in. A week or two before closing, contact the lender to find out if there have been any changes in the Good Faith Estimate. By law, you can inspect the final settlement statement (also called the HUD-1 or HUD-1A form) one day prior to closing. Study these forms. Write down any questions you want to ask. Think Twice before You Sign Have a knowledgeable friend, relative, attorney, or housing counselor review the Good Faith Estimate and other loan papers before you sign the loan contract. Be sure the terms are the same ones you agreed to. For example, a lender should not promise one APR and then--without good reason--increase it at closing. Refer to the list of questions you’ve written down. Ask where these terms are covered in the loan contract. And ask for an explanation of any dollar amount or term you don’t understand. Don’t let anyone rush you into signing the loan contract. Make sure all promises, oral and otherwise, are put in writing. It’s only what’s in writing that counts. Get a copy of the documents you signed before you leave the closing. Don’t Sign on the Dotted Line if the Lender … Tells you to falsify information on the loan application (for example, suggests that you write down more income than you really have). Pressures you into applying for a loan for more money than you need, or one that has monthly payments larger than you can afford. Promises one set of terms but gives you another with no good reason for the change. Tells you to sign blank forms or forms that aren't completely filled in. If an item is supposed to be blank, draw a line through the space and initial it. Pressures you to sign today. A good deal today should be available tomorrow. Know that You Have Rights under the Law You Have 3 Business Days to Cancel the Loan If you're using your home as security for a home equity loan (or for a second mortgage loan or a line of credit), federal law gives you 3 business days after signing the loan papers to cancel the deal--for any reason--without penalty. You must cancel in writing. The lender must return any money you have paid to date. Do You Think You've Made a Mistake? Has the 3-day period during which you may cancel passed and you're worried that you've gotten in over your head? Do you think your loan fees were too high? Do you believe you were steered into monthly payments you can't afford? Has your lender repeatedly pressured you to refinance? Is your loan covered by insurance you don't need or want? If you think you've been taken advantage of, state and federal laws may protect you. Also, the following organizations may be able to help: Your local or state bar association--sometimes listed under "Lawyers Referral Service" in the Yellow Pages of your phone book. The association may be able to refer you to low-cost or no-cost lawyers who can help. Your local consumer protection agency, state attorney general’s office, or state office on aging, listed in the Blue Pages of your phone book. Your local fair housing group or affordable housing agency, housing counseling agency, or state housing agency. You can learn more about credit and home equity loans by visiting the federal government’s web site for consumers, www.consumer.gov (see the Home and Community section). If you don’t have access to the Internet, ask a friend or relative to get the information for you. Or visit your local library or senior center, which may offer you free access to the Internet on their computers. For More Information State Banks that Are Members of the Federal Reserve System Division of Consumer and Community Affairs Mail Stop 801 Federal Reserve Board Washington, DC 20551 (202) 452-3693 www.federalreserve.gov Federally Insured State Non-Member Banks and Savings Banks Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation Consumer Response Center 2345 Grand Boulevard, Suite 100 Kansas City, Missouri 64108 (877) 275-3342 www.fdic.gov National Banks and National Bank-Owned Mortgage Companies Office of the Comptroller of the Currency Customer Assistance Group 1301 McKinney Street Suite 3450 Houston, TX 77010 (800) 613-6743 www.occ.treas.gov Federally Insured Savings and Loan Institutions and Federally Chartered Savings Banks Office of Thrift Supervision Consumer Programs 1700 G Street, N.W., 6th Floor Washington, DC 20552 (800) 842-6929 www.ots.treas.gov Federal Credit Unions National Credit Union Administration Office of Public and Congressional Affairs 1775 Duke Street Alexandria, VA 22314 (703) 518-6330 www.ncua.gov For state-chartered credit unions, contact your state's regulatory agency. Mortgage Companies and Other Lenders Federal Trade Commission Consumer Response Center 600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, DC 20580 (877) FTC-HELP (877-382-4357, toll free) www.ftc.gov Other Information Sources U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division 950 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W. Housing and Civil Enforcement Section, NWB Washington, DC 20580 (202) 514-4713 www.usdoj.gov/crt/housing/index.html Federal Housing Finance Board 1777 F Street, N.W. Washington, DC 20006 (202) 408-2500 www.fhfb.gov Department of Housing and Urban Development 451 7th Street, S.W. Washington, DC 20410 800-669-9777 (voice) 800-927-9275 (TTY) www.hud.gov Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) 1700 G Street, N.W. 4th Floor Washington, DC 20552 (202) 414-6922 www.ofheo.gov Adobe acrobat version of text for printing (119 KB PDF) is formatted for printing on two sides of a 11 x 17" sheet of paper. Fold the paper in half. The PDF contains a fillable area on the back panel for you to provide your own contact information. Worksheet for printing (58 KB PDF) Obtaining the Acrobat Reader from the Adobe Web Site This information was prepared by the following federal agencies: Department of Housing and Urban Development, Department of Justice, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, Federal Housing Finance Board, Federal Reserve Board, Federal Trade Commission, National Credit Union Administration, Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, Office of Thrift Supervision. Home | Brochures Accessibility | Contact us Last update: March 24, 2004